Has U.S. Democracy Been Trumped?

[jonottawa]

Very thoughtful article on Trump's immigration policy for those who aren't completely beyond reason:

 

https://imprimis.hillsdale.edu/who-we-are-as-a-people-the-syrian-refugee-question/

 

"The common-sense citizen is forgiven for thinking this train of thought insane."

 

That's the 2016 election in a nutshell.

[Al_U_Card]

Tom Friedman's take on the election had some themes in common with awm's take. Friedman described a feeling of homelessness which felt right to me. I understand the temptation and the wisdom of fleeing. Life is too short to have to deal with this bullshit year after year after ***** year, in the real world and even here in the water cooler. One of my literary heroes is Cormac McCarthy who wrote these lines almost 40 years ago and has not shown any signs of mellowing since:

 

 

The problem for me isn't so much Trump or Bush as it is the crazed minds of the people who voted for them and who speak for them here in the water cooler, the last refuge on what looks more like the road to hell than I ever imagined I would find myself on in this country. I mean, I don't even think John Denver could spin this into something that looks like its going the other way anytime soon.

But those same "crazed minds" were present all along and were blithely ignored right up to the final fatalistic moment. Now they are a problem? Because they expressed their democratic right? (Hardly crazed IYAM...) Billions spent by corporate masters could not subvert the system and you are worried about those "crazed minds" that used their vote to express the inacceptability of the practices of those same masters? Hard to fathom such a lack of perception.

[kenberg]

I'm am American. [ Or, to be literary, I am an American, Minneapolis born. See The Adventures of Augie March]. I was born here, I live here, I'll die here. I have never felt the need to claim that the U.S. is exceptional, I have never felt the need to leave it. I have occasionally considered moving back to Minnesota. I grew up there, but I have been told that you can't go home again. Becky likes the Pacific coast, so do I, perhaps we will move west someday. But four of the five kids are in Maryland, yesterday was my younger daughter's birthday, we are about to go over to my older daughter's for a celebratory dinner. We will stay here.

[Al_U_Card]

I'm am American. [ Or, to be literary, I am an American, Minneapolis born. See The Adventures of Augie March]. I was born here, I live here, I'll die here. I have never felt the need to claim that the U.S. is exceptional, I have never felt the need to leave it. I have occasionally considered moving back to Minnesota. I grew up there, but I have been told that you can't go home again. Becky likes the Pacific coast, so do I, perhaps we will move west someday. But four of the five kids are in Maryland, yesterday was my younger daughter's birthday, we are about to go over to my older daughter's for a celebratory dinner. We will stay here.

The US IS the exception that makes it exceptional. Don't under-estimate the desirability of enshrined rights and freedoms (like so many immigrants do appreciate) as well as a system that promotes (for the time being) self-reliance and individual autonomy. It's greatest force is the decentralized nature of its federation. Unique and a union worth preserving and enjoying.

[Winstonm]

The sensation I seem to hear most and feel myself is an overwhelming sadness - a grief as if something good and much loved has died.

[Al_U_Card]

The sensation I seem to hear most and feel myself is an overwhelming sadness - a grief as if something good and much loved has died.

Noble cause corruption withdrawl? All these posts from the usual suspects reek of being poor losers. Hang in there for another election cycle and you'll get your chance to re-instate your next "Hope and change" candidate who will doubtless promulgate more of the same...

[jonottawa]

What possible reason would they have to post such things, they aren't going to get any glory from being approached by predators, it isn't as though they might be talking about anyone famous, these are people who feel fear about even going to get gas from a gas station now or choosing what they will wear for the day, or trying to figure out what to tell their teenager -or their 5 year old! - about what he or she is being faced with in school.

 

I guess you could ask her what her motive was.

 

http://milo.yiannopoulos.net/2016/11/louisiana-woman-falsely-accuse-trump/

[hrothgar]

Noble cause corruption withdrawl? All these posts from the usual suspects reek of being poor losers. Hang in there for another election cycle and you'll get your chance to re-instate your next "Hope and change" candidate who will doubtless promulgate more of the same...

 

This was the first election cycle in 30 years in which there was a genuine chance to swing the Supreme Court from Conservative to Liberal.

 

Instead, we now have to deal with the following

 

1. The Republicans will get to pick a replacement for Scalia

2. Ginsburg, Kennedy, and Brennan are all extremely old. 1-2 of them are almost certain to be replaced

 

This isn't one of those cases where we get to wait four years and then squeeze the toothpaste back into the tube...

 

Elections have very real consequences

[Al_U_Card]

Does not the President, seconded (or thwarted) by the party in power in the Congress, get to nominate jurists to that most august branch? Since no president-for-life or one party system exists, it stands to reason that the various judges of the SCOTUS come from moments in time that can produce a range of views, as it should.

Not liking current and future possibilities is just sour grapes. The system was most cleverly devised and, over the long haul, appears to be functioning ably, whether some critics like it or not.

[cherdano]

I guess you could ask her what her motive was.

 

http://milo.yiannopoulos.net/2016/11/louisiana-woman-falsely-accuse-trump/

So there have been 100s of reports of incidents of racists of anti-semites or islamophobes emboldened by Trump. I have seen one report about a false accusation. And you think that one proves your point?

 

There are lots of nutcases on BBF. But none of them are as despicable a human being as you are.

[hrothgar]

Does not the President, seconded (or thwarted) by the party in power in the Congress, get to nominate jurists to that most august branch? Since no president-for-life or one party system exists, it stands to reason that the various judges of the SCOTUS come from moments in time that can produce a range of views, as it should.

Not liking current and future possibilities is just sour grapes. The system was most cleverly devised and, over the long haul, appears to be functioning ably, whether some critics like it or not.

 

Believing that Democratic presidents should be allowed to nominate Supreme Court Justices is hardly "sour grapes"

 

The Republicans refused to allow Obama to appoint a Supreme Court justice during the fourth year of his second term.

They made claims that they would block any appointment that Clinton would have made had she won.

 

This is hardly a system that is functioning ably...

 

There are some very good books out there right now explaining how the American system of checks and balances is unable to adapt to modern political realities

 

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0465096204/ref=pd_sbs_14_t_0?ie=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=9J10XV1GJ23HCJ6VKZD9

[jonottawa]

There are lots of nutcases on BBF.

Ummm, yes. I've noticed.

 

But none of them are as despicable a human being as you are.

LOL

 

 

Even MSNBC's Chris Matthews gets it:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjVNI6UiHV4

[Al_U_Card]

Ummm, yes. I've noticed.

 

 

LOL

I always find it rather perplexing to see people capable of rational discourse resorting to name-calling to try and further their arguments. We can only improve our understanding of the entire situation by encouraging diverse (if not always opposing) viewpoints. Bankrupting the exchange of ideas by marginalizing contributors is the last resort of those without recourse.

 

So many good ideas and well-defined positions, why limit ourselves to only that which our prejudices and predelictions deem "right"? It only serves to impoverish our own potential to improve.

[Al_U_Card]

 

There are some very good books out there right now explaining how the American system of checks and balances is unable to adapt to modern political realities... that agree with my feelings and positions.

 

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0465096204/ref=pd_sbs_14_t_0?ie=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=9J10XV1GJ23HCJ6VKZD9

 

There, FYP.

[hrothgar]

Its nice that we have JonOttawa and Al_U_Card to remind us that moving to Canada isn't all that its cracked up to be and that the US doesn't have a monopoly on racist imbeciles...

[hrothgar]

I'd bugger goats on live television if I thought that people would pay attention to me

 

There, FYP

[PassedOut]

I'd bugger goats on live television if I thought that people would pay attention to me

Seriously?? No doubt the attention you'd get would be from the police...

:rolleyes:

[onoway]

I guess you could ask her what her motive was.

 

http://milo.yiannopoulos.net/2016/11/louisiana-woman-falsely-accuse-trump/

That's a totally different situation and I said so in the post, or are you incapable of comprehending the difference?

 

There are always people drawn to fame at any price, the people I am referencing are people who aren't getting any personal fame, they are looking for somewhere safe to express their astonishment, fear, horror, sense of degradation.

 

Of course that is likely a stretch for you to imagine. Nor would you be likely to bother, since you can comfortably relax in the idea that anyone who says anything negative is happening is just looking for attention.

 

Of course, there is the immediate reemergence of the KKK but never mind, I'm sure they are only fun loving guys who like to dress up and make bonfires.They surely wouldn't be actually acting on anything they think.

 

I wonder sometimes how some people can walk and chew gum at the same time.

[onoway]

Its nice that we have JonOttawa and Al_U_Card to remind us that moving to Canada isn't all that its cracked up to be and that the US doesn't have a monopoly on racist imbeciles...

It fills me with fury and grief that such neanderthal thinking is actually so prevalent here as well. We had our own minor version of Trump in power here for a while, and his totally undemocratic arbitrary authoritarian methods of ruling appealed to the same simplistic, complacent smug people looking for a daddy figure. I think they may all have been ants in a former life, they want everyone marching in lock step, everyone looking the same, smelling the same, doing only as they are supposed to do, everyone knowing what their niche is and never protesting, never looking outside the box they are in.

 

Luckilly they are still in a minority, but like slugs in a garden they keep showing up and trying to spoil everything.

[Kaitlyn S]

Its nice that we have JonOttawa and Al_U_Card to remind us that moving to Canada isn't all that its cracked up to be and that the US doesn't have a monopoly on racist imbeciles...

You should know that the US doesn't have a monopoly on racist imbeciles by simply opening your eyes and looking at the policies in countries whose people hate us:

 

Gays being stoned to death

Women relegated to second class citizens or little more than slaves or possessions; being subjugated to their husbands who they may not have even chosen, often beaten for expressing an opinion.

 

But perhaps you should look at yourselves to see why you have a "racist imbecile" for a President.

 

There are many backward racists. They may not have voted if not for the condescending liberal elite constantly calling them bigoted, racist, stupid, uninformed, and uneducated. I'm sure there was a lot of "Let's show those pompous asses who's boss" votes.

 

There were many people who may or may not be racist, but are definitely sick of all the politically correct nonsense being pushed down their throats. Trump's message inspired them to vote.

 

There were many people who have seen the two Clinton justices and two Obama justices consistently rule in lockstep with each other in favor of interpreting the Constitution in a way that would have the Founding Fathers would have rolled over in their grave. They feared that a Clinton presidency would mean perhaps a quarter century of a majority of justices ruling that way. (My vote was partially based on that.)

 

There were many people that saw that Hillary Clinton as extremely corrupt and feared her being in power. Many if not most of those realized that Donald Trump would not be a good President but feared that Hillary would be worse for the country. (My vote was partially based on that.)

 

Many Obama voters who voted for Hope & Change saw divisiveness get worse in our country, did not see the racial situation improve (yes, the racists seemed to get worse during an Obama administration), and saw more people go into poverty. They weren't anxious to see four or eight more years of the same, and while they could not bring themselves to vote for Trump, they weren't inspired to vote for Clinton either.

 

This is the country we live in. Future demographics look to favor your side (an electoral map of the millennial votes was almost all blue.) However, for now, you have to realize that there are many people that do not think like you do, and if you want to get a government that's to your liking, you have to appease some of the voters described above. You cannot just say "We know what's best for you, so shut up and take our candidate!" and expect it to happen.

[rmnka447]

This was the first election cycle in 30 years in which there was a genuine chance to swing the Supreme Court from Conservative to Liberal.

 

Instead, we now have to deal with the following

 

1. The Republicans will get to pick a replacement for Scalia

2. Ginsburg, Kennedy, and Brennan are all extremely old. 1-2 of them are almost certain to be replaced

 

This isn't one of those cases where we get to wait four years and then squeeze the toothpaste back into the tube...

 

Elections have very real consequences

 

Funny, but one of the prime factors that drove some people to vote for Trump at the end was the thought that Hillary Clinton would be appointing Supreme Court justices.

 

Progressives/liberals only have themselves to blame. It seems like whenever they talk about judges it's in terms of appointing judges who agree with the liberal agenda and will essentially rubber stamp it. But judicial appointments should never be about enabling anyone's agenda -- progressive or conservative. As the third co-equal branch of the government, the court system needs to be an impartial arbiter which protects our freedoms, ensure individual's rights aren't infringed upon, and ensure no governmental branch oversteps its governmental role/authority. At the Supreme Court level, this means ensuring the Constitution remains a viable, working framework for our democratic republic.

 

If the courts ever become widely politicized, then we're well down the slippery slope to a totalitarian government. (If you don't believe this, then I suggest you find a copy of the excellent 1961 movie "Judgment at Nuremburg" and watch it. It's about the war crime trials after WWII, but focuses on a senior member of the German judiciary and the role he played in aiding and abetting the Nazis.)

 

A couple examples come to mind one historical, one hypothetical...

 

The historical example goes back to the 1930's depression era. President Franklin Delano Roosevelt (FDR) worked with Congress to pass the National Recovery Act (NRA) which sought to help industry and businesses recover and get going again. But certain provisions of the law which imposed some conditions that the Supreme Court found unconstitutional. As a result, the law was struck down. After this happened, FDR started questioning why the Supreme Court should have 9 members. He talked about possibly raising the number of justices to 15 so he could appoint enough judges to get his programs through without any judicial interference. The American public let FDR know very rapidly that this was not an option.

 

For the hypothetical, let's suppose Barack Obama's orders on immigration were Ok'ed by the lower court and appealed to the Supreme Court where the 4-4 deadlock resulted in letting the lower court ruling stand. Then, Donald J. Trump gets elected President. What safeguard is there to prevent Trump from writing other orders that essentially go around Congress? The precedent will have been set. If we ever get to a spot where rule is by Presidential fiat, democracy is gone or shortly would be.

[Cyberyeti]

So according to your analysis, if we average yearly deficits of $2 TRILLION over the next 10 years, everything will be fine, because the debt will only have doubled?

 

#NotSureIfTrolling

 

I disagree with most of this, but I like the headline:

 

Spoiled Americans now want to flee what they created

 

I'm not saying it's good, I'm saying it's not out of line with what's gone before so saying "he's the worst (or second worst) ever" is a big overbid.

[andrei]

There are lots of nutcases on BBF. But none of them are as despicable a human being as you are.

 

These days there are plenty of angry white males around: on this board, in Portland and throughout US.

No wonder DT got elected.

[jonottawa]

You should know that the US doesn't have a monopoly on racist imbeciles by simply opening your eyes and looking at the policies in countries whose people hate us:

 

Gays being stoned to death

Women relegated to second class citizens or little more than slaves or possessions; being subjugated to their husbands who they may not have even chosen, often beaten for expressing an opinion.

 

But perhaps you should look at yourselves to see why you have a "racist imbecile" for a President.

 

There are many backward racists. They may not have voted if not for the condescending liberal elite constantly calling them bigoted, racist, stupid, uninformed, and uneducated. I'm sure there was a lot of "Let's show those pompous asses who's boss" votes.

 

There were many people who may or may not be racist, but are definitely sick of all the politically correct nonsense being pushed down their throats. Trump's message inspired them to vote.

 

There were many people who have seen the two Clinton justices and two Obama justices consistently rule in lockstep with each other in favor of interpreting the Constitution in a way that would have the Founding Fathers would have rolled over in their grave. They feared that a Clinton presidency would mean perhaps a quarter century of a majority of justices ruling that way. (My vote was partially based on that.)

 

There were many people that saw that Hillary Clinton as extremely corrupt and feared her being in power. Many if not most of those realized that Donald Trump would not be a good President but feared that Hillary would be worse for the country. (My vote was partially based on that.)

 

Many Obama voters who voted for Hope & Change saw divisiveness get worse in our country, did not see the racial situation improve (yes, the racists seemed to get worse during an Obama administration), and saw more people go into poverty. They weren't anxious to see four or eight more years of the same, and while they could not bring themselves to vote for Trump, they weren't inspired to vote for Clinton either.

 

This is the country we live in. Future demographics look to favor your side (an electoral map of the millennial votes was almost all blue.) However, for now, you have to realize that there are many people that do not think like you do, and if you want to get a government that's to your liking, you have to appease some of the voters described above. You cannot just say "We know what's best for you, so shut up and take our candidate!" and expect it to happen.

Brilliant post.

 

The essence of it is that the regressive Left hates America (the constitution, rule of law, checks & balances, ethical journalism, morality, patriotism, liberty, meritocracy, freedom of speech, right to bear arms, don't tread on me.) And many Americans still love America. And so the regressive Left has decided in its infinite wisdom to replace Americans who love America with foreigners who hate America as much as they do.

[rmnka447]

These days there are plenty of angry white males around: on this board, in Portland and throughout US.

No wonder DT got elected.

 

It's nice to think that you can compartmentalize Trump's victory to white males, but in the end Trump only did slightly better than Romney in getting votes.

 

A BIG factor in Trump winning was that Clinton didn't get turnout to the extent of 5 million less votes. I'm not so sure it's all that Hillary was not likeable because of trustworthiness issues.

 

Maybe, some of Trump's rhetoric about "they only come for your vote every 4 years and then do nothing" to the minority communities hit home. Minority communities have suffered far worse than whites through the last 14 or so years. Certainly, there was some palpable anger in black communities about Barack Obama's failure to deliver for them. It's pretty obvious that Donald Trump is viewed by many in these communities as racist, so he was never getting their vote. So in one way, it's possible that the lack of turnout was a protest non-vote saying "you've forgotten or ignored me so I'm not giving you my vote."