Has U.S. Democracy Been Trumped?

[mike777]

I think equating prehistoric migrations of early humans to modern immigration and asylum-seeking is not very productive.

 

I brought it up since posters brought up immigration from hundreds of years ago and the issue of original immigration.

 

I would hope it is productive as it shows 2 very big things:

1)humans are a migrating animal...it is part of our DNA and thousands upon thousands of years of history.

2) It shows man's inability to sit..alone...in a room, the cause of many human ills.

 

 

TO put it another way trying to stop immigration to North America or Europe or beyond the planet is like putting your finger in a dike to stop the flood. It is part of our very Nature.

[kenberg]

I don't think they enjoy it much. One is very math and science oriented, and the other prefers noncore classes (while still being very good at math). There is definitely no stopping at 1890 though. A course objective is to present material from every past presidency.

 

I took some high school in Texas. A one semester course in Texas history was required. Only much later did I come to suspect that the material was not very objective. In contrast, the current APUSH course is definitely not a patriotic whitewash.

 

When I say the the life of today's youngster is more stressful than mine I mean every word of it. Every era has its pluses and minuses. I have a sixteen year old grandson taking courses that simply were not available to me when I was sixteen. But I had a 47 Plymouth I bought with money I had earned, the same shop manual for it that the Plymouth mechanics had, and I did my own work, some of it extensive. Pluses and minuses.

 

Best wishes to the youngsters, yours and everyone's.

[Zelandakh]

2) It shows man's inability to sit..alone...in a room, the cause of many human ills.

You think that migration due to (inter alia) overpopulation, war, persecution or climate change equates to an inability to sit alone in a room under happier circumstances? That is quite astonishing even for you Mike! :blink:

[Al_U_Card]

Historically, winners seldom consider their conquest to be a form of genocide (cultural or actual) yet even in places where the inhabitant culture and property were respected, resentment and resistance to assimilation is prevalent (personal experience here in Quebec). That the vanquished came to their precedence by genocide (of native peoples and culture) was sufficiently typical to not merit mention. Getting unbiased reference is rare indeed.

[Zelandakh]

You do not have to go as far as genocide to illustrate the point that history is often more a form of political expression than a real analysis of the past. An obvious example from America history is slavery - does anyone seriously believe that the narrative of the American Civil War would be as we know it today had the Confederacy won? It was the combination of this plus the apparent severity/difficulty of the classes that reminded me of The Wall and similar works.

[Al_U_Card]

Then perhaps the problem is the political expression of our nature? (History being a convenient marker for how perceptions are warped by perspective.)

The US was conceived to establish and protect the rights of land-owning (rich) white men and that is the core of the American dream. Fight to get and hold on to whatever is within reach. Any minority or visible opposition to the established centers of power and control can be marginalized and used as a focus to avoid inspection and rejection of the "majority" position. That, too, is an aspect of our natures.

Trump is an effective tool in this respect because he is not saying: "Look at what is wrong with our system!" but rather, "Look at this shiny object!" Politics (because of our natures) is much less about issues and more about trying to be on the winning side. Tribalism at its most refined.

[Trinidad]

I'm sorry, I'm just trying to make sense of the suggestion that something is radically different in Europe now than in the past, and between Europe and the US.

The difference in Europe is the rise of nationalism. When, as an example, the Vietnamese came in the '70s, they were accepted relatively fast. If one would have the view that these foreigners don't belong here, it would be pointed out that all people are equal and that anyone who thinks different is a fascist or a nazi (and we know what they did).

 

Now, populist nationalist politicians make it look like it is acceptable to not help refugees. After all, they are not Dutch/German/Danish, so they must be thieves and rapists and they can solve their own problems back in Syria or Libya or wherever.

 

Or did you Americans really think that the Donald invented all this stuff himself?

 

Rik

[barmar]

You do not have to go as far as genocide to illustrate the point that history is often more a form of political expression than a real analysis of the past. An obvious example from America history is slavery - does anyone seriously believe that the narrative of the American Civil War would be as we know it today had the Confederacy won? It was the combination of this plus the apparent severity/difficulty of the classes that reminded me of The Wall and similar works.

As the old saying goes, "History is written by the victors".

 

But I think one of the hallmarks of modern, compassionate society is being able to recognize its own faults, and try to make amends. We can't undo the mistakes of the past, such as massacring Native Americans and slavery, and it's impactical to give the Native Americans back all the land we took from them (and I don't think many African-Americans want to return to Africa), so the best we can do is some token reparations and try to avoid making the same mistakes in the future. And when discussing history, we shouldn't whitewash it.

[gwnn]

Funniest Youtube comment I read about the media talking about Sanders: "At this rate they may not cover Bernie's Presidential inauguration."

 

I don't follow the media too much but I do get the sense that they keep summarizing the debates as "Hillary did not drop dead on stage. Obvious winner." Even though she says stuff like "If my donors think they can influence me, they've got another thing coming!" I don't know what that's supposed to mean, are you really saying that huge corporations just gave you the money because you "protected them after 9/11"?

 

As you can see, I'm far from informed, but I feel like others who dismiss Bernie out of hand are also not using their informedness accurately. I know polls are the work of the devil, but Bernie is apparently within single digits nationally (low 40's vs high 40's) and leading or is tied in the first two primary states. Also, he'd win an election against all of Cruz, Trump, Rubio, etc, at a higher margin than Hillary. I know that she's the favourite, but other than some sort of evil conspiracy to (literally) kill the honest candidate, why isn't there at least some distant chance he'll get the nomination?

 

I'm just puzzled, I guess, that there's a bunch of Europeans who are excited for Bernie but a lot of Americans are way more cynical.

 

/incoherent ramble.

[kenberg]

Funniest Youtube comment I read about the media talking about Sanders: "At this rate they may not cover Bernie's Presidential inauguration."

 

I don't follow the media too much but I do get the sense that they keep summarizing the debates as "Hillary did not drop dead on stage. Obvious winner." Even though she says stuff like "If my donors think they can influence me, they've got another thing coming!" I don't know what that's supposed to mean, are you really saying that huge corporations just gave you the money because you "protected them after 9/11"?

 

As you can see, I'm far from informed, but I feel like others who dismiss Bernie out of hand are also not using their informedness accurately. I know polls are the work of the devil, but Bernie is apparently within single digits nationally (low 40's vs high 40's) and leading or is tied in the first two primary states. Also, he'd win an election against all of Cruz, Trump, Rubio, etc, at a higher margin than Hillary. I know that she's the favourite, but other than some sort of evil conspiracy to (literally) kill the honest candidate, why isn't there at least some distant chance he'll get the nomination?

 

I'm just puzzled, I guess, that there's a bunch of Europeans who are excited for Bernie but a lot of Americans are way more cynical.

 

/incoherent ramble.

 

 

The campaign so far has reduced us all to incoherent rambling. I think we could get broad support for a resolution reading "All currently announced candidates please go jump off a cliff. We intend to start over."

 

As to" "At this rate they may not cover Bernie's Presidential inauguration.":

The same was true of Reagan. I'm sure that as Reagan was taking the oath of office there were pundits explaining why this actor in second-rate movies could not possibly win.

 

We do sometimes miss what is front of us.

[mike777]

You think that migration due to (inter alia) overpopulation, war, persecution or climate change equates to an inability to sit alone in a room under happier circumstances? That is quite astonishing even for you Mike! :blink:

 

YOu miss the point of your entire post. :)

 

 

You list many results from mankind's inability to sit alone in a room which yes they do indeed lead to migration.

 

Astonishing you think we have overpopulation if man is alone in a room, etc for the rest of your list.

[Zelandakh]

You think that allowing the species to die out (which would be the effect of literally only sitting in a room alone) is the answer to "all of man's ills"? Well I suppose on one level that is true but you are right, if that was your point it flew right over my head.

[Winstonm]

President Obama hit upon it in his SOTU speech - our form of democracy is hard. If we want better candidates, we must demand better candidates by involvement in the political process. Sitting on the sofa and pressing buttons on the remote won't do it.

[Zelandakh]

If you want the best candidates, dropping the requirement of being a multi-millionaire is probably much more effective than anything any of us alone could do in an entire lifetime.

[y66]

My Congressman, Don Beyer (safely ensconced semi-liberal establishmentarian) thinks the keys to restoring sanity are (1) campaign finance reform, (2) redistricting reform and (3) ranked choice voting. Smart guy. I believe he's also an intermediate level bridge player.

[Winstonm]

My Congressman, Don Beyer (safely ensconced semi-liberal establishmentarian) thinks the keys to restoring sanity are (1) campaign finance reform, (2) redistricting reform and (3) ranked choice voting. Smart guy. I believe he's also an intermediate level bridge player.

 

I think these ideas good. Redrawing districts, IMO, is a variation on the ideas in The Wealth of Nations, in that local competition is required for the good of all. In gerrymandered districts, the choice is not between coffee of tea, but only about which brand of coffee or which type of tea (party).

[kenberg]

So I actually have to go out and work for a candidate? Shut my mouth.

 

Redistricting: I share a Congressional district with my older daughter. We are about 30 miles from Pennsylvania to the north, she is about 5 miles from Virgina to the south. This absurd re-districting was done a few years back to oust a longtime republican representative.

 

So our guy is Chris van Hollen. But he is now running for the Senate. So there could be some action in local politics.

 

This all inspired me to go to van Hollen's website where I learned that through his efforts my county (Carroll County) is now designated a High Intensity Drug trafficking Area.

 

Who knew? I don't even know anyone around here who smokes pot. Becky complains that if she wants any spicy ingredients for food it cannot be found locally. Oh it's a wild wild area.

 

But apparently there is money available in being designated a HIDTA. We can get a grant. Cut down on aspirin overdose maybe.

 

But I am being cynical.

[y66]

This all inspired me to go to van Hollen's website where I learned that through his efforts my county (Carroll County) is now designated a High Intensity Drug trafficking Area.

 

Who knew? I don't even know anyone around here who smokes pot. Becky complains that if she wants any spicy ingredients for food it cannot be found locally. Oh it's a wild wild area.

 

But apparently there is money available in being designated a HIDTA. We can get a grant. Cut down on aspirin overdose maybe.

 

But I am being cynical.

I was in your neck of the woods 4 years ago picking up a truckload of old bricks for a home remodel. The guy who owned the brickyard (out in the boondocks, as it were) had connections with people in Baltimore who knocked down old houses. I forget how we got onto the topic but he mentioned a place he owned down in the Caribbean islands which made me think, from looking at him, that he probably had a sideline. I shouldn't jump to conclusions. Maybe there's a lot of money in old bricks.

[kenberg]

I was in your neck of the woods 4 years ago picking up a truckload of old bricks for a home remodel. The guy who owned the brickyard (out in the boondocks, as it were) had connections with people in Baltimore who knocked down old houses. I forget how we got onto the topic but he mentioned a place he owned down in the Caribbean islands which made me think, from looking at him, that he probably had a sideline. I shouldn't jump to conclusions. Maybe there's a lot of money in old bricks.

 

Another explanation: People her are "old family". When I lived near the University of Maryland my younger daughter was the only person I knew who had been born in Maryland. In Carroll, many people go way back. It is not unusual at all to find people of very modest means who go for vacation to a family place on many acres. It's a little disorienting, but, with those I know, it is family history, not drugs.

 

There is the occasional bust, usually involving one or two people. We joke that the Carroll County Times has a generic photo that they run since all the suspects look pretty much the same. Thirty year old white guys that look like they sell drugs for a living. Not that I want to profile anyone.

[kenberg]

Prediction time:

 

Dem: Clinton

Rep: Cruz

Major third party candidate?: No

Next Pres: Clinton

 

 

This prediction is bad for Clinton and the Dems because I have a horrible track record. I am not betting the house, but I think this is how it will go.

 

I predict Sanders in Iowa, but as we Gophers used to say at the football games, who in the hell likes corn?

[blackshoe]

Can the country survive a Clinton presidency? Or, to be fair, a Cruz one?

[kenberg]

Can the country survive a Clinton presidency? Or, to be fair, a Cruz one?

 

Oh probably. HC once supported the TPP and now opposes it "as she understands it". As president she will change the spelling of a word or two and announce that it is now acceptable again.

 

I have been unable to make it through the debates of either team lately.

 

I learned this morning (by listening to Writer's Almanac) that it was on this date in 1793 that Louis XVI was beheaded, a reminder that things do not always go as planned, but I think that we will survive.

[y66]

Prediction time:

 

Dem: Clinton

Rep: Cruz

Major third party candidate?: No

Next Pres: Clinton

 

 

This prediction is bad for Clinton and the Dems because I have a horrible track record. I am not betting the house, but I think this is how it will go.

 

I predict Sanders in Iowa, but as we Gophers used to say at the football games, who in the hell likes corn?

My prediction: Sanders wins Iowa and NH then gets stopped in SC. Clinton wins nomination and defeats Bush in Nov.

[Al_U_Card]

Hil and Jeb are cut from the same cloth. Bernie couldn't beat Mullah Omar and Trump is in it to tie up the Tea Party so that Jeb can save the day as the only "rival" to Hil...

[y66]

The National Review, which describes itself as "America's most widely read and influential magazine and web site for conservative news, commentary, and opinion", launched an all-out Donald Trump Must Be Stopped aka Against Trump campaign yesterday which included this salvo:

 

Trump is a philosophically unmoored political opportunist who would trash the broad conservative ideological consensus within the GOP in favor of a free-floating populism with strong-man overtones.

and this warning to the Republican party:

 

If responsible men irresponsibly ignore an issue as important as immigration, it will be taken up by the reckless. If they cannot explain their Beltway maneuvers — worse, if their maneuvering is indefensible — they will be rejected by their own voters. If they cannot advance a compelling working-class agenda, the legitimate anxieties and discontents of blue-collar voters will be exploited by demagogues. We sympathize with many of the complaints of Trump supporters about the GOP, but that doesn’t make the mogul any less flawed a vessel for them.

Responsible men irresponsibly ignoring important issues? Only in neocon world.