Has U.S. Democracy Been Trumped?

[pilowsky]

The blobs prove that the Australian voting system is better (but not perfect) than the US system.

[johnu]

The blobs prove that the Australian voting system is better (but not perfect) than the US system.

I was expecting this type of blob, so I didn't watch the video.

 

[Chas_P]

If the U.S. had six political parties, which one would you belong to?

I didn't read the article. It required a subscription to the NYT. But if one of the choices was The Common Sense party that would be my choice.

 

Three yards of black fabric enshroud my computer terminal. I am mourning the passing of an old friend by the name of Common Sense. His obituary reads as follows: Common Sense, aka C.S., lived a long life, but died from heart failure at the brink of the millennium. No one really knows how old he was, his birth records were long ago entangled in miles and miles of bureaucratic red tape. Known affectionately to close friends as Horse Sense and Sound Thinking, he selflessly devoted himself to a life of service in homes, schools, hospitals and offices, helping folks get jobs done without a lot of fanfare, whooping and hollering.

 

Rules and regulations and petty, frivolous lawsuits held no power over C.S. A most reliable sage, he was credited with cultivating the ability to know when to come in out of the rain, the discovery that the early bird gets the worm and how to take the bitter with the sweet.

 

C.S. also developed sound financial policies (don’t spend more than you earn), reliable parenting strategies (the adult is in charge, not the kid) and prudent dietary plans (offset eggs and bacon with a little fiber and orange juice).

 

A veteran of the Industrial Revolution, the Great Depression, the Technological Revolution and the Smoking Crusades, C.S. survived sundry cultural and educational trends including disco, the men’s movement, body piercing, whole language and new math. C.S.’s health began declining in the late 1960s when he became infected with the If-It-Feels-Good, Do-It virus.

 

In the following decades, his waning strength proved no match for the ravages of overbearing federal and state rules and regulations and an oppressive tax code. C.S. was sapped of strength and the will to live as the Ten Commandments became contraband, criminals received better treatment than victims and judges stuck their noses in everything from Boy Scouts to professional baseball and golf.

 

His deterioration accelerated as schools implemented zero-tolerance policies. Reports of 6-year-old boys charged with sexual harassment for kissing classmates, a teen suspended for taking a swig of Scope mouthwash after lunch, girls suspended for possessing Midol and an honor student expelled for having a table knife in her school lunch were more than his heart could endure.

 

As the end neared, doctors say C.S. drifted in and out of logic but was kept informed of developments regarding regulations on low-flow toilets and mandatory air bags. Finally, upon hearing about a government plan to ban inhalers from 14 million asthmatics due to a trace of a pollutant that may be harmful to the environment, C.S. breathed his last.

 

Services will be at Whispering Pines Cemetery. C.S. was preceded in death by his wife, Discretion; one daughter, Responsibility; and one son, Reason. He is survived by two step-brothers, Half-Wit and Dim-Wit.

 

Memorial Contributions may be sent to the Institute for Rational Thought. Farewell, Common Sense. May you rest in peace.

[Gilithin]

No doubt C.S. would be turning in her grave at the government stepping in to tell women that they have no rights over their bodies. Not to mention children separated from parents with no records kept to reunite them; taking the world largest debt and adding a few trillion dollars to it in a handout to the top 10%; answering a national gun death crisis by loosening gun restrictions; answering a contagious pandemic by preventing measures proven to prevent deaths and promoting untested, and in many cases dangerous, treatments; and of course, implementing as many undemocratic measures as possible in a desperate attempt to cling on to power with a clear minority of support. I cannot tell which of the 6 virtual parties C.S. would be a member of but I can guarantee it is neither of the two located in the top-right quadrant.

[pilowsky]

I was expecting this type of blob, so I didn't watch the video.

 

 

 

An excellent film where the blob was destroyed by

extreme cold

Maybe they should have tried sunlight or bleach.

[hrothgar]

I didn't read the article. It required a subscription to the NYT. But if one of the choices was The Common Sense party that would be my choice.

 

Guess "The racist shiite heads" were full up...

 

FWIW, when you steal long blocks of text from other people, it's nice to provide attribution

 

https://www.loriborgman.com/1998/03/15/the-death-of-common-sense/

 

Otherwise, folks might think you were plagiarizing...

[pilowsky]

My new favo(u)rite website.

 

Learn how Robert E Lee would manage the war in Afghanistan.

https://www.donaldjtrump.com/news/news-nqqxjy65sh0

 

 

[Chas_P]

Guess "The racist shiite heads" were full up...

 

FWIW, when you steal long blocks of text from other people, it's nice to provide attribution

 

https://www.loriborgman.com/1998/03/15/the-death-of-common-sense/

 

Otherwise, folks might think you were plagiarizing...

Ok, I'll put it in quotes. Happy now?

Three yards of black fabric enshroud my computer terminal. I am mourning the passing of an old friend by the name of Common Sense. His obituary reads as follows: Common Sense, aka C.S., lived a long life, but died from heart failure at the brink of the millennium. No one really knows how old he was, his birth records were long ago entangled in miles and miles of bureaucratic red tape. Known affectionately to close friends as Horse Sense and Sound Thinking, he selflessly devoted himself to a life of service in homes, schools, hospitals and offices, helping folks get jobs done without a lot of fanfare, whooping and hollering.

 

Rules and regulations and petty, frivolous lawsuits held no power over C.S. A most reliable sage, he was credited with cultivating the ability to know when to come in out of the rain, the discovery that the early bird gets the worm and how to take the bitter with the sweet.

 

C.S. also developed sound financial policies (don’t spend more than you earn), reliable parenting strategies (the adult is in charge, not the kid) and prudent dietary plans (offset eggs and bacon with a little fiber and orange juice).

 

A veteran of the Industrial Revolution, the Great Depression, the Technological Revolution and the Smoking Crusades, C.S. survived sundry cultural and educational trends including disco, the men’s movement, body piercing, whole language and new math. C.S.’s health began declining in the late 1960s when he became infected with the If-It-Feels-Good, Do-It virus.

 

In the following decades, his waning strength proved no match for the ravages of overbearing federal and state rules and regulations and an oppressive tax code. C.S. was sapped of strength and the will to live as the Ten Commandments became contraband, criminals received better treatment than victims and judges stuck their noses in everything from Boy Scouts to professional baseball and golf.

 

His deterioration accelerated as schools implemented zero-tolerance policies. Reports of 6-year-old boys charged with sexual harassment for kissing classmates, a teen suspended for taking a swig of Scope mouthwash after lunch, girls suspended for possessing Midol and an honor student expelled for having a table knife in her school lunch were more than his heart could endure.

 

As the end neared, doctors say C.S. drifted in and out of logic but was kept informed of developments regarding regulations on low-flow toilets and mandatory air bags. Finally, upon hearing about a government plan to ban inhalers from 14 million asthmatics due to a trace of a pollutant that may be harmful to the environment, C.S. breathed his last.

 

Services will be at Whispering Pines Cemetery. C.S. was preceded in death by his wife, Discretion; one daughter, Responsibility; and one son, Reason. He is survived by two step-brothers, Half-Wit and Dim-Wit.

 

Memorial Contributions may be sent to the Institute for Rational Thought. Farewell, Common Sense. May you rest in peace.

 

[kenberg]

Ok, I'll put it in quotes. Happy now?

 

 

It's a bit of a quandary. " provide attribution" means more than "put quote then slash quote around it". But if I say that, it suggests I believe you don't already know that. And then I sound naive.

 

As to the quiz, I took it twice, a few hours apart, and made a point of not asking myself what answer I had given the previous time. On the first run I came out as New Liberal, on the second as Labor. It's not a poll I would put much faith in. I took something like it (well, vaguely like it) in high school to see, on the basis of my responses to odd questions about music and so forth, what a good choice would be for a career. First and second recommendations were farmer and aviator. As with most advice I got from adults, I ignored it. Possibly I have not changed much in that regard.

[y66]

It's a bit of a quandary. " provide attribution" means more than "put quote then slash quote around it". But if I say that, it suggests I believe you don't already know that. And then I sound naive.

 

As to the quiz, I took it twice, a few hours apart, and made a point of not asking myself what answer I had given the previous time. On the first run I came out as New Liberal, on the second as Labor. It's not a poll I would put much faith in. I took something like it (well, vaguely like it) in high school to see, on the basis of my responses to odd questions about music and so forth, what a good choice would be for a career. First and second recommendations were farmer and aviator. As with most advice I got from adults, I ignored it. Possibly I have not changed much in that regard.

I'm halfway between the American Labor Party and the New Liberal Party on the "economically conservative" axis and slightly more "socially conservative" than the New Liberal Party.

[pilowsky]

Here's the link to the quiz from the 2016 US Presidential election.

I just retook the Australian one from the last election (vote compass ABC Australia (My link) if you want to look it up).

They are all constructed by the same company.

As usual, I ended up almost exactly in the middle of the square.

So, I tried the US version, and it placed me almost on top of Jill Stein.

It seems that the average voter in America is incredibly conservative - including those that vote Democrat.

I recommend trying both (Scott Morrison=Trump, Pauline Hanson=MTG+LB+MattG), Richard DiNatale=Jill Stein) <--- for reference.

 

Some members of the Forum will be excited to know that the Australian version has a racism detector.

[kenberg]

I'm halfway between the American Labor Party and the New Liberal Party on the "economically conservative" axis and slightly more "socially conservative" than the New Liberal Party.

 

I didn't look at it that closely.

Here is an example of why I am unenthusiastic about the questions. One question was whether I think it should be easier or harder to immigrate to the US. Well, I certainly don't think a criterion for entering the US should be the ability/willingness to walk from Guatemala to the US border. But is that what they mean? Maybe they mean shoould we accept more or fewer immigrants. If they had asked if I thought our immigration policies are seriously screwed up, that's an easy yes.

 

In college I took Psych 1 and 2 as part of some requirement to broaden my education. They had multiple choice exams. Mostly I showed up on exam days and skipped the lectures Multiple choice exams are easier if you don't know anything about the subject matter.

[Gilithin]

I just retook the Australian one from the last election (vote compass ABC Australia (My link) if you want to look it up).

I looked through the methodology but could not find where they state what they use for axes in their "abstract political landscape". Are they using the (popular in the US) economic vs social model, the more traditional (popular in Europe) radical-conservative vs authoritarian-liberal, or something else entirely?

[cherdano]

Gotta say, that C.S. guy is an odd fellow.

 

He grew up when Black Americans were enslaved to work on cotton plantations, and it didn't bother him.

Traitors caused a civil war to defend their right to enslave African-Americans, and it didn't bother him.

Women had no rights to go to University, to vote, or not to get raped by their husbands, and it didn't bother him.

A world-wide war broke out for reasons no one could quite figure out, and it didn't bother him.

Decades of lynching and terrorism against African-Americans, and it didn't bother him.

Decades of politically motivated left-wing or right-wing terrorism, and it didn't bother him.

 

New pedagogical trends in reading or math, and it bothered him.

An insecure teacher here or there being overly strict in interpreting rule, and, what hadn't bothered him for centuries, suddenly bothered him.

The boy scouts, well it didn't bother him, but in fairness back when he died, nobody fully understood how much it should have bothered him.

The government made cars safer and reduced the waste of freshwater, and it bothered him.

The government stepped in when a company sold millions of albuterol inhalers, some of which contained no albuterol, and it bothered him. It bothered him so much, he followed those asthma patients who were unwittingly using a placebo inhaler into death.

 

I don't fault him, C.S. He grew up at a time when many didn't know any better.

 

But if you hold him up as an example for us now, that does raise some questions. I don't know the answer, but one of the plausible ones is "you are an ignorant racist misogynist a**hole". Or at least, you play one on BBF. The act gets a bit old, and maybe you aren't even sure any more whether it's an act.

[Winstonm]

I didn't look at it that closely.

Here is an example of why I am unenthusiastic about the questions. One question was whether I think it should be easier or harder to immigrate to the US. Well, I certainly don't think a criterion for entering the US should be the ability/willingness to walk from Guatemala to the US border. But is that what they mean? Maybe they mean shoould we accept more or fewer immigrants. If they had asked if I thought our immigration policies are seriously screwed up, that's an easy yes.

 

In college I took Psych 1 and 2 as part of some requirement to broaden my education. They had multiple choice exams. Mostly I showed up on exam days and skipped the lectures Multiple choice exams are easier if you don't know anything about the subject matter.

 

Disclaimer: My understandings can be wrong. I am willing to learn.

 

Now, my grasp on things is that those walking from Guatemala to the U.S. border are not immigrants but asylum-seekers, and there is a difference. I don't think asylum seekers would affect the question about making immigration harder or easier.

[Chas_P]

I don't know the answer, but one of the plausible ones is "you are an ignorant racist misogynist a**hole".

Let me assure you of three things Arend.

1. I'm not "ignorant". I'm probably as least as well-educated, if not better-educated, than you are.

2. I'm not "racist". "Racist" is a term that you and those of your ilk choose to describe those who don't share your worldview. Dictionary.com describes "racist" as "the doctrine that one's own racial group is superior or that a particular racial group is inferior to the others." That's not me. I love all people who know how to behave themselves regardless of skin tone.

3. I'm not a misogynist. "Misogynist" is another term that halfwits like you like to toss around. Dictionary.com describes it as "a person who hates, dislikes, or mistrusts women." That's not me. I've been married to the best woman in the history of the world for over 61 years.

4. Hopefully this will prove to you that I'm not an "asshole". I do have one, as does everyone else.

 

Frankly, your opinion, like Richard's, is totally insignificant to me. But please feel free to keep expressing it. It's the American way. ;)

[hrothgar]

I love all people who know how to behave themselves regardless of skin tone.

 

And in the past, you've let us know just how you want the darkies to behave...

[Chas_P]

And in the past, you've let us know just how you want the darkies to behave...

As previously stated...........

Frankly, your opinion, like Richard's, is totally insignificant to me. But please feel free to keep expressing it. It's the American way.

[hrothgar]

As previously stated...........

 

Chas, are you really so stupid that you think that you and I are having a conversation?

 

None of this is about convincing you of anything

You're a hopeless little piece of *****

 

The reason that I (amongst many many others) label you as a racist is so the rest of the community is aware just the general opinion is about you.

 

Note that you have no defenders.

You have no allies.

 

But you do have a whole bunch of people who openly label you as a racist.

[kenberg]

Disclaimer: My understandings can be wrong. I am willing to learn.

 

Now, my grasp on things is that those walking from Guatemala to the U.S. border are not immigrants but asylum-seekers, and there is a difference. I don't think asylum seekers would affect the question about making immigration harder or easier.

 

Well, maybe. I think that they wish to be in the US. If seeking asylum is likely to succeed, then they are asylum seekers. But their wish is to be in the US.

 

It's another broken part of the system. I doubt that anyone attempts the journey unless they have very strong reasons for doing so. When they get to the border, they must pass an asylum test. I don't know just what qualifies and what doesn't but I imagine there is some sort of checklist. Can they prove that...., I think I will not try to make a list.

 

I guess if the problem were easy to solve, we would have solved it. And I certainly do not claim a solution.

 

But the question on the political grouping test, asking if I would like it to be easier or harder to immigrate, seems inadequate. As did most of the questions.

[Chas_P]

You have no allies.

 

But you do have a whole bunch of people who openly label you as a racist.

That doesn't bother me. I know who I am. You, OTOH, I view as nothing more than an arrogant, foul-mouthed greasy little turd who is mighty proud of the way he turned out. I wish you a happy life.

[johnu]

That doesn't bother me. I know who I am. You, OTOH, I view as nothing more than an arrogant, foul-mouthed little turd who is mighty proud of the way he turned out. I wish you a happy life.

 

It's way past time for Chas_NoDignityNoIntegrityNoHonor to FAKE quit this thread until he loses self-control once again and is unable to stop himself from posting.

[pilowsky]

I looked through the methodology but could not find where they state what they use for axes in their "abstract political landscape". Are they using the (popular in the US) economic vs social model, the more traditional (popular in Europe) radical-conservative vs authoritarian-liberal, or something else entirely?

 

Methodology notwithstanding, it is clear from the type of questions asked that some things are rated very highly as 'matters of concern' in the USA that doesn't rate as important enough to be asked about in the Australian version.

You might not understand these types of questionnaires or take them seriously, but I know for a fact that this is how political parties guide their policy-making.

Politicians don't really care about abstract ideas of moral 'good'; they care about being elected.

Australian far-right loonies exist. They are just the same in their world-view as those in the USA.

It is even possible that the proportions are similar.

The rump of the MAGA base in the USA is about 20-30 million (more than the population of Australia).

Catchphrases like 'cancel culture' are being promoted (with little success) by Sky news (that's what Murdoch calls his Fox channel in Australia).

Australia does not have the "right to say what you want" and "the right to carry guns" as top 5 political issues.

The left in America would generally be considered 'wet' - left-wing conservatives.

The mainstream Republicans would be considered 'dry' - right-wing conservatives.

The MAGA faction is a tiny group that sometimes manages to get senate representation because of the vagaries of the Hare-Clark voting system.

Someone like Bernie would probably be considered on the right-wing of the Australian Labor (that's how we spell it for the party) Party.

I doubt that you would find more than 1% of the Australian electorate in favour of "open-carry" or abolishing free medical care for everyone or eliminating free University education (there is a small PAYG charge now) or getting rid of the social security safety net for the unemployed or aged.

 

 

 

 

[Gilithin]

It is completely natural for national politics to concentrate on the areas of disagreement between the major political parties of their country. As you point out, America has a broad agreement to ignore the left side of most political graphs completely. I usually categorise the choice as between the right and the more right. Even on the heat map of the original (US) link, it is remarkable just how linear the American voter population is - in most such graphs for mature democracies, the entire range is covered.

 

But you did not answer about the axes being used. It was a genuine question and I am interested in which political model is being used for Australian preferences.

[kenberg]

Winstonm, on 2021-September-10, 20:16, said:

 

Disclaimer: My understandings can be wrong. I am willing to learn.

 

Now, my grasp on things is that those walking from Guatemala to the U.S. border are not immigrants but asylum-seekers, and there is a difference. I don't think asylum seekers would affect the question about making immigration harder or easier.

 

Well, maybe. I think that they wish to be in the US. If seeking asylum is likely to succeed, then they are asylum seekers. But their wish is to be in the US.

 

It's another broken part of the system. I doubt that anyone attempts the journey unless they have very strong reasons for doing so. When they get to the border, they must pass an asylum test. I don't know just what qualifies and what doesn't but I imagine there is some sort of checklist. Can they prove that...., I think I will not try to make a list.

 

I guess if the problem were easy to solve, we would have solved it. And I certainly do not claim a solution.

 

But the question on the political grouping test, asking if I would like it to be easier or harder to immigrate, seems inadequate. As did most of the questions.

 

 

Further thoughts on that question from the NYT poll (or quiz or whatever):

 

 

I looked up the exact wording of the question

 

The choices were

Much easier, slightly easier, no change, slightly harder, much harder.

"How easy or difficult should it be to immigrate to the United States?

 

Is it a clear question?

Winston mentions that many are not immigrants but are asylum seekers. In answering the question, I did not make that distinction. Further, my guess is that of those who took the poll, few made that distinction. And if they did make that distinction, did they then make other distinctions? Some immigrants go through a legal process before coming here. Perhaps those who do not do this should also not be classified as immigrants. If we do not classify asylum seekers as immigrants, who do we classify as immigrants?

 

So that's one (I think minor) problem with the question, it did not specify who was to be regarded as an immigrant. I say it's a minor problem because I would place a fair size bet that most who responded to it took the same view that I did, that by "immigrant" the question meant someone who is not a US citizen but who would like to come to the US and become a US citizen. Of course this is a large diverse group that can be broken into many sub-categories but I doubt most responders worried about that.

 

The bigger problem with the question was that immigration, however we classify immigrants, asylum seekers etc, is a complex issue. Start with a simple question: Are we to set immigration policy primarily to benefit those who wish to come here or primarily to benefit the country? "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses, yearning to breathe free". Very idealistic. I looked it up and these were placed on the Statue of Liberty in 1905. My paternal grandfather came through Ellis Island in 1905, my father and my uncle came through in 1910. Perhaps they were yearning to breathe free and perhaps they were allowed in because the government thought it was our mission to help the huddled masses, but I strongly suspect there was some strong economic motivation at play. The nation needed and wanted immigrant labor, the people who came thought the US was a good place to make a living.

 

So that would be a good question to see how people view the role of government: Should our immigration policy be directed toward helping the poor and huddled masses yearning to breathe free or should it be directed toward the economic benefit. of the country. Of course there can be a synthesis of these goals and that could be included on the question as well. The fact that sometimes the two goals can work in tandem does not mean that they always work in tandem and we could do a better job of tis if we acknowledged both that there is some interplay between the two goals, but the two goals are not identical. We could then decide whether we seek support ofr immigration policies based on what it would do for the huddled masses or based on what it would do for us. I am pretty sure that when my father came over, it was the second of these goals that dominated thinking.

 

 

I believe the NYT poll is highly flawed. That's no problem, I can just ignore it. But the questions, and the flaws in the questions, illustrate our current problems. Possibly clarifying the questions could help us toward a better approach to solving the problems.

 

Anyway, that's my reason for tis expanded response.