What is the right bid?

[Adam1105]

[hv=pc=n&s=sak875ha876dq6c87&d=n&v=0&b=1&a=1sp]133|200[/hv]

 

What is the right bid for south to make here? Thank you.

[ArtK78]

I would make a forcing spade raise and see what partner does over that. For me, the forcing raise is 2NT Jacoby.

[aguahombre]

It would be nice, here, if whatever tool we have to show a vanilla game force in Spades didn't require Opener to make specific shortness-showing bids or whatever. Responder is in no position to take over with that hand. If your J2N is structured to elicit information rather than merely show a G.F. raise, you might consider having an alternate method to just set trump and show game strength so that Opener can be the Captain.

[mgoetze]

[hv=pc=n&s=sak875ha876dq6c87&d=n&v=0&b=1&a=1sp]133|200[/hv]

 

What is the right bid for south to make here? Thank you.

You're asking in the wrong forum.

[Adam1105]

You're asking in the wrong forum.

Sorry for my INFERIOR question.

[ArtK78]

It would be nice, here, if whatever tool we have to show a vanilla game force in Spades didn't require Opener to make specific shortness-showing bids or whatever. Responder is in no position to take over with that hand. If your J2N is structured to elicit information rather than merely show a G.F. raise, you might consider having an alternate method to just set trump and show game strength so that Opener can be the Captain.

While I don't disagree with what you are saying, my other way to raise spades is not appropriate for this hand, so I will force to game and, depending on the response, probably just bid 3♠ and let partner take the next move.

 

By the way, my opinion on this hand is consistent with your signature.

[kenberg]

[hv=pc=n&s=sak875ha876dq6c87&d=n&v=0&b=1&a=1sp]133|200[/hv]

 

What is the right bid for south to make here? Thank you.

 

You may have to say a few words about methods to get a usful response. SAYC, which you list as a system in your profile includes Jacoby 2NT. The booklet at SAYC says

 

22NT = Game-forcing raise (Jacoby 2NT), 13+ dummy points. Asksopener to show a short suit to help responder evaluate slam prospects

 

Seems to fit the satiation. Of course this won't help unless you and aprtner are on the same wavelength about what happens next. As most play, after Jacoby then:

 

Partner rebids 4S. His weakest bid. i pass.

Partner rebids 3C or 3D. This shows a stiff or void. A good start. I bid 3H

Partner rebids 3H. Again, a stiff. I rebid 3S to see what happens next.

Partner rebids 3NT over 2NT. Forward going, no stiff. I'm not excited bu I bid 4H.

Partner bids 3S over 2NT. Very forward going, I bid 4H.

 

 

Imo, playing pick up with a US player, s/he is apt to play Jacoby and apt to play it this way. Still, undiscussed it is dangerous. There are other (also artificial) ways of playing the 2NT. So you have to know what you are playing.

 

But if you are playing SAYC then, unless discussed otherwise, you are playing Jacoby as described above because that is what the SAYC booklet says it is.

[rmnka447]

This hand requires a game forcing raise. You've got a hand that you'd open 1 ♠ at the least. But better than that, you know some things, partner (opener) can't be aware of. You know your side has a 10+ card fit and likely NO trump suit losers. You have an additional side suit control in ♥ and the two minor doubletons could help limit losers there. Depending on how partner continues the bidding, this hand could have slam potential. But the key for slam will be determining what side suit losers exist which points towards cueing controls.

 

It would be nice, here, if whatever tool we have to show a vanilla game force in Spades didn't require Opener to make specific shortness-showing bids or whatever. Responder is in no position to take over with that hand. If your J2N is structured to elicit information rather than merely show a G.F. raise, you might consider having an alternate method to just set trump and show game strength so that Opener can be the Captain.

 

How would like this hand if opener responded with either a 3 ♣ or a 3 ♥ shortness bid to J2N? Alternatively, how would you like this hand if opener jumped to 4 ♦ over J2N showing the 2 suiter?

 

I think in all those cases, you should at least show some slam cooperative slam interest. Over 3 ♣ shortness, I'd bid 3 ♥ showing the control. Over 3 ♥ shortness, I'd try 3 ♠ showing slam interest and see what partner does next. Over 4 ♦, the ♦ Q gains a bit of value as partner is hardly likely to jump in ♦s holding ♠ QJxxx at best without strong ♦s. So continuing with a 4 ♥ cue would be a no brainer.

[lycier]

Sorry for my INFERIOR question.

 

Hi welcome to this forum.

I think if you change your topic into " how would you make a forcing ♠ raise ?",that topic is meaningful.

Don't be discouraged,you are very good.

[blackshoe]

It's a good question. B-)

 

As others have said, you want to eventually be in at least game in spades with this hand opposite almost any kind of natural 1♠ opening, but it's hard to answer your question without knowing what 1♠ means. If you are playing SAYC or some other SA variant, it's something like 12-21 starting points, 5+ spades, no longer suit, not suitable for a GF 2♣ opening, if balanced not suitable for a 1NT or 2NT opening. That's a pretty wide ranging bid, so you want to make a forcing response of some kind while keeping the bidding low enough to allow room for partner to start exploring for slam if he's interested in that. In a system like Precision, where 1♠ shows something like 11-15 HCP, not good enough for 1♣, which would be forcing, 5+ spades, no longer suit, not suitable for a 1 or 2NT opening, you probably just want to bid game — slam is not likely.

 

In SAYC, as others have pointed out, you really have no other choice than the Jacoby 2NT response. In old style Goren, 3♠ was the GF raise, but modern practice is for 3♠ to be invitational or in some systems weak and preemptive, Where the opening 1♠ is limited in strength (e.g. Precision) you might have Jacoby 2NT or some other approach available, but as I said above, you probably just want to bid the game and get on with the play.

[Antrax]

Hi welcome to this forum.

I think if you change your topic into " how would you make a forcing ♠ raise ?",that topic is meaningful.

Don't be discouraged,you are very good.

Do note the question was in the expert forum at the time.

[kenberg]

Do note the question was in the expert forum at the time.

 

I had not noticed this, indeed I don't know how to figure this out.

 

As is probably clear from my reply, I took this as a question from someone who was not quite sure how to handle a hand that clearly belongs ion game but might be playable in slam. Someone who "plays SAYC", but a lot of people "play SAYC" and they definitely do not all play it as written.

 

If this is an expert player asking for advice from fellow experts, well, I am not an expert. But I still bid 2NT.

[Antrax]

No harm done, it's likely the OP thought the forum titles are about who answers, rather then the level of questions. It just explains mgoetze's reaction.

[ggwhiz]

so that Opener can be the Captain.

 

It's not impossible to transfer captaincy back to the opener after jacoby 2nt. Depending on openers response we often use 3nt (never to play) to accomplish the transfer, showing a good minimum for the 2nt bid, a bit better than a jump to game. After that, cue the heart Ace if asked and then do whatever the opener tells you to do.

[mikeh]

It's not impossible to transfer captaincy back to the opener after jacoby 2nt. Depending on openers response we often use 3nt (never to play) to accomplish the transfer, showing a good minimum for the 2nt bid, a bit better than a jump to game. After that, cue the heart Ace if asked and then do whatever the opener tells you to do.

That is one use for 3N, but it would be unwise for any player to assume that this was the intention, undiscussed. For example, I think it is far, far better used to show ongoing interest but denying a club control, assuming partner had rebid 3 red or 3♠. I cannot construct a hand on which responder should bid 3N over a 3♣ call showing a stiff.

[WesleyC]

It's not impossible to transfer captaincy back to the opener after jacoby 2nt. Depending on openers response we often use 3nt (never to play) to accomplish the transfer, showing a good minimum for the 2nt bid, a bit better than a jump to game. After that, cue the heart Ace if asked and then do whatever the opener tells you to do.

 

1M - 2NT (G/F raise)

3C( minimum) - ???

 

3D (Tell me more...)

3H/3S/3NT (YOU BE THE CAPTAIN, that's my shortage!)

[ggwhiz]

I cannot construct a hand on which responder should bid 3N over a 3♣ call showing a stiff.

 

A 3♥ cue followed by 4♠ should put opener back in the drivers seat and I can't construct a 3nt call over that either unless maybe 2 red kings or the club Ace and one or two. The 3nt call is thoroughly discussed as showing an upper end weak notrump but cue bidding (NOT 1st OR 2nd) is the overriding preference and that doesn't seize the captaincy either.

 

After a 3 red or 3♠ response 3nt showing interest but lacking a club control solves 1 problem and presents 2 more. Some interest or a lot of interest? Zero club control or 2nd round?

[Zelandakh]

1M - 2NT (G/F raise)

3C( minimum) - ???

 

3D (Tell me more...)

3H/3S/3NT (YOU BE THE CAPTAIN, that's my shortage!)

If you include a raise structure that handles maxi-splinters you can use these to show a side suit, which gets around the issue of whether to show the support or the side suit in the first instance, a common theme for BBF questions.

[ladydoc]

In our system(two over one game force by max hardy) there is no ambiguity in the major suit raises and they are very specific.

 

4 clubs shows four or more cards in spade support, with 2 of the top three honors, also an opening hand.

Says it all.

There is a bid for every hand in major suit support.

 

This bid in this system also denies a splinter, and shows a balanced hand.

 

If responder had had a splinter, with the same point count and the Ace King of trump, he would have shown this shape with an "overjump shift" , 3NT. Opener's four club bid would then ask "where is your splinter?"