Slam killer-what version of 2/1 is this?

[steve2005]

My link

Ok 4♥ bid shows 14-17 total points so Gib has its bid. But what human would jump to game with this hand.

Has 4-4 ♥ fit including KJ♥, at least a 5-3♠ fit including Q♠ and 2 Aces

That is way too much to have to jump to game in 4♥. imo

[cloa513]

My link

Ok 4♥ bid shows 14-17 total points so Gib has its bid. But what human would jump to game with this hand.

Has 4-4 ♥ fit including KJ♥, at least a 5-3♠ fit including Q♠ and 2 Aces

That is way too much to have to jump to game in 4♥. imo

Just another lazy definition of game bid that GIB just inserts.

[Bbradley62]

For the benefit of the programming staff who would be charged with implementing any suggested change, let's try to be very specific about what change is being suggested.

 

Unless there's a major overhaul, GIB only has one simplistic way of evaluating hands, and it doesn't include extra points for double fits, etc. So, if 2♣ require 14 total points, should 4♥ be limited to 15 total points rather than 17? Should 2♣ only require 13 total points, in addition to lowering the limit on 4♥? What is the specific suggestion here?

[steve2005]

For the benefit of the programming staff who would be charged with implementing any suggested change, let's try to be very specific about what change is being suggested.

 

Unless there's a major overhaul, GIB only has one simplistic way of evaluating hands, and it doesn't include extra points for double fits, etc. So, if 2♣ require 14 total points, should 4♥ be limited to 15 total points rather than 17? Should 2♣ only require 13 total points, in addition to lowering the limit on 4♥? What is the specific suggestion here?

jumping to game in a forcing auction 4♥ in this case should be at most 15 pts and should not have 2 keycards even then.

giving extra points for a double fit would be an improvement but you say this is difficult

[Stephen Tu]

The normal method here is for 4♥ to be a picture bid, denying a high spade honor (AKQ IMO) or diamond A/K/singleton/void, showing points concentrated in hearts and clubs. Probably should be limited to maybe 15 HCP.

[1eyedjack]

What is the actual gib definition assigned to 3H here?

[helene_t]

Flat hand with 14-17 is ok to show with 16 plus a doubleton. If this is GIB's biggest flaw GIB would be a miracle.

[steve2005]

deleted

[steve2005]

Flat hand with 14-17 is ok to show with 16 plus a doubleton. If this is GIB's biggest flaw GIB would be a miracle.

This hand is worth a slam try, or at least a keep your options open, not a sign-off. Playing 2/1 is 3♥. 4♥ is a bid you might have to make playing SAYC. Even in SAYC I think 3♥ is forcing so would be the correct bid, but SAYC ill-defined so not sure.

[Bbradley62]

This hand is worth a slam try, or at least a keep your options open, not a sign-off. Playing 2/1 is 3♥. 4♥ is a bid you might have to make playing SAYC. Even in SAYC I think 3♥ is forcing so would be the correct bid, but SAYC ill-defined so not sure.

But, if the description is accurate (which we have no reason to doubt), then North's hand is within a sufficiently small range to allow South to make a slam try if appropriate, such as when he holds the given hand.

[1eyedjack]

I still think that we are getting nowhere in this discussion without a GIBberish answer to post #6

[steve2005]

But, if the description is accurate (which we have no reason to doubt), then North's hand is within a sufficiently small range to allow South to make a slam try if appropriate, such as when he holds the given hand.

while I agree in hind sight a slam try would be in order, but never in my wildest dreams am I expecting 4♥ to contain 3 KC plus Qxx♠ which there is no way to find out.

Take a minimum hand lacking controls which is what I would expect and your not safe at 5-level. xx Jxxx KQJ KQJx 13 hcp plus 1 pt for doubleton in opener's suit.

Slam tries are way more effective below game. Jumping to game with 4 working cards 5 if u include J♥ just makes slam bidding so much harder.

[Bbradley62]

What is the actual gib definition assigned to 3H here?

Why do we think it's anything other than 4+♣; 4+♥; 18+ total points?

[lycier]

The normal method here is for 4♥ to be a picture bid, denying a high spade honor (AKQ IMO) or diamond A/K/singleton/void, showing points concentrated in hearts and clubs. Probably should be limited to maybe 15 HCP.

 

What you said is equal to delayed major raise,it is one of classic " Fast Arrival of Principle".

[lycier]

Complaining is useless,we need more constructive suggestions to help the programming staff.

Obviously here need many good bidding rules.

 

1- After two over one responding,responder play " fast arrival of principle " only for few cases,it is equal to major delayed raise,and showing mini values without slam intrest.At least it describes almost of important features hold.

2- Raising opening major suit by responder shows extra values with some undisclosed features ,ask opener to go on telling story so as to explore the possibility of potential slam.

 

 

Maybe this is a huge complicated system engineering, let us understand the programming staff better.

[Stephen Tu]

What you said is equal to delayed major raise,it is one of classic " Fast Arrival of Principle".

 

Actually no it is not. Playing "fast arrival", jumping to game only shows a minimum but says nothing about holdings in spades/diamonds. "Picture bids" specifically deny controls in the unbid suits, show a hand with concentration of values in the suits you've shown, they don't only show minimums.

 

Most bidding theorists consider "fast arrival" (where one jumps with all minimums regardless of shape and honor distribution) a poor way to play when the other hand is unlimited as is here. This is because you remove all cue-bidding room below game, and the other hand might be interested in slam, and might no longer be able to safely investigate since there may not be 5 level safety depending on the control situation.

 

OTOH "fast arrival" is probably easier to handle from a programming GIB perspective.

[Stephen Tu]

bumping since 2 years later still no change:

 

[hv=http://www.bridgebase.com/tools/handviewer.html?sn=Stephen%20Tu&s=SAQ732HAK43DKT6CJ&wn=Robot&w=S965HJT72D84CT643&nn=Robot&n=SK4HQ865DAQ75CAQ5&en=Robot&e=SJT8H9DJ932CK9872&d=e&v=n&b=2&a=P1S(Major%20suit%20opening%20--%205+%20%21S%3B%2011-21%20HCP%3B%2012-22%20total%20points)P2D(Forcing%20two%20over%20one%20--%2013+%20HCP%3B%20biddable%20%21D%3B%2014+%20total%20points%3B%20forcing%20to%203N)P2H(New%20suit%20--%204+%20%21H%3B%205+%20%21S%3B%2011-21%20HCP%3B%2012-22%20total%20points%3B%20forcing%20to%203N)P4H(4+%20%21D%3B%204+%20%21H%3B%2014-17%20total%20points)P4N(Blackwood%20%5BH%5D%20--%204+%20%21H%3B%205+%20%21S%3B%2021-%20HCP%3B%2018-22%20total%20points)P5S(Two%20or%20five%20key%20cards%3B%20queen%20--%204+%20%21D%3B%204+%20%21H%3B%20%21HQ%3B%2014-17%20total%20points)P6H(4+%20%21H%3B%205+%20%21S%3B%2021-%20HCP%3B%2018-22%20total%20points)PPP&p=C3CAC9CJH5H9HAH2H3HTHQC8H6S8HKH7S2S9SKSJS4STSAS6&c=12]400|300[/hv]

 

I see no reason to make the bot bid 4h rather than 3h. I'd prefer the bot played picture jumps (no A/K blacks, maybe 14/15 hcp max), but even if play "fast arrival", 17hcp is way too strong imo.

 

I think 12+hcp for 2/1, 13-15 at most for a fast arrival jump.