(1C)-X again

[kenberg]

Fiar warning: We landed on our feet so this is not an ATB hand. But I was not so sure what to make of the auction.

[hv=pc=n&s=sa853hjtdj96cj643&d=w&v=0&b=8&a=1cdp1sp2cp2dp2hp]133|200[/hv]

 

Error! That club Jack should be a club 7.

 

I am South.

 

I suppose partner has a decent hand. Beyond that, I am not so sure.

 

Maybe you are not fond of my 2D call, neither am I, but I didn't have a better idea.

 

 

What sort of hand are you thinking partner has?

 

How about my hand? It seems that I would have bid the same way so far if my Ace of spades had been the ten. I think I would also have bid the same way if my J of diamonds had been the King, or at any rate I would have bid the same if the J were the Q. So should I be thinking that my hand is better than it might be on the bidding, or should I be more pessimistic?

 

So what do I do next and what are my future plans for this hand?

 

We have no extensive agreements and no unusual agreements. Doubling and then bidding 2H over my 2S would have shown a good hand with good hearts, not forcing.

[aguahombre]

Partner didn't double and then bid 2H, he didn't overcall some large number of hearts; he made the strongest possible sequence showing a monster and hearts are trump.

 

I have plenty with the spade bullet and my JT of hearts to cooperate for possible slam. I try 2♠, an unmistakeable control bid.

 

BTW, your second bid of 2D was a fine punt with no second choice IMO.

[ggwhiz]

 

What sort of hand are you thinking partner has?

 

We have no extensive agreements and no unusual agreements. Doubling and then bidding 2H over my 2S would have shown a good hand with good hearts, not forcing.

 

I have no idea yet but we are on a game force. 2♦ was punt #1 and 2♠ now is punt #2 on the way to I suspect either hearts or notrump.

[wank]

2d was non-forcing and perforce a gross underbid. 3C, intending to bid 3nt next, would be a better call. anyway, now partner has shown a very strong hand with hearts as the primary suit. i would wheel out 3c belatedly to show values and hope to get hearts into the auction next, though we might run out of space.

[WesleyC]

My vote is for 3H now to confirm hearts as trumps and remove any ambiguity.

[rmnka447]

By cueing the opener's suit, doubler is showing an extremely powerful hand. After your 1 ♠, 2 ♦ or 2 ♥ by doubler would show a strong overcall hand -- nominally 16-18 with a good suit. The cue followed by hearts shows a hand stronger than that. Think in terms of the hand being as least near to a jump shift or 2 ♣ opener had opener passed. Back before Michaels became widespread, a direct cue would show this kind of hand. But since that's no longer available, the route to show that hand is as here -- start with a double and cue.

 

I agree with aquahombre that 2 ♦ is a good "punt" on this hand. What are the alternatives? 2 NT on J empty 4th doesn't look too attractive. Maybe if you held a surer stopper like ♣ J108x, you might consider that call. 2 ♦ lies a little because you have only 3 ♦. But on the plus side, you've made the cheapest bid possible. It's cleared the way for partner to describe his hand further as cheaply as possible.

 

As you surmise, 2 ♦ still doesn't promise any real values. It could be presumably something like xxxx xxx xxxx xx. (If someone wants to suggest that you bid 1 ♦ initially with this dross then pass partner's further call, I'd ask what they would do after the auction progressed (1♣) - DBL - (P) - 1 ♦ - (2 ♣) - DBL - (P)? Whoops! Now you can't find a ♠ fit without possible forcing to the 3 level if none exists.)

 

But partner's 2 ♣ call insures he's going to take another call over 2 ♦ in any case. So you'll have another chance to show your values then.

 

BTW, a 3 ♥ call by doubler over the 2 ♦ call sets ♥ as trump and requesting you to bid game if you have any feature that might be useful at game (side A, fit and ruffing value, etc.).

[billw55]

Indeed, if partner's bidding is to be trusted, he has a moose.

 

Next I want to confirm hearts - ♥JT is quite nice in this context. However I am uncertain whether fast arrival applies here, or if partner would be on the same page. Would 3♥ be forcing? I am on shaky ground here, I don't even know if partner expected 2♥ to firmly set trumps. With so much fog, I choose the direct 4♥, which should avoid a total disaster. OK, this could miss slam when all partner needs is the ♠A. I guess I will have to live with it. Meanwhile if partner is so strong that he cues a minor, I will cue the spade and expect to make the slam.

[kenberg]

Oops. But probably a minor oops.

 

The Jack of clubs was actually the 7. But that's their suit and I doubt it matters to anyone's response. It makes a decent problem with the club Jack also but I apologize for the error.

 

I also seem to have misspelled "again" in the subtitle. I really need a copy editor.

 

I don't want to dwell too much on what partner actually had. I did rebid 2S and we ended in 4S making 5.

 

 

I got to thinking later that maybe this auction should show a good heart suit (no kidding) together with a good three card spade holding. That is, the message should be "I don't want to insist on hearts. If your hearts are crummy and your spades are good, 4S might be better." At the time he bid 2C I might, as far as he knew, have five spades. With reasonably good hearts and with three good spades he would not want to directy bid some number of hearts. So he tries 2C. Now I bid 2D and he is still uncertain about strain so he bids 2H to see what I do.

 

This seems not entirely crazy to me. But I was a bit confused.

 

So, briefly, I am thinking that with three spades, five hearts, and a great hand the auction might go this way.. It wasn't what he had, but it seems like this could be right.

 

 

We had an eight card spade fit. This I was not expecting.

[nige1]

Oops. But probably a minor oops. The Jack of clubs was actually the 7. But that's their suit and I doubt it matters to anyone's response. It makes a decent problem with the club Jack also but I apologize for the error. I also seem to have misspelled "again" in the subtitle. I really need a copy editor.

Using the full editor you can correct mistakes, including misspellings in the topic title.

I don't want to dwell too much on what partner actually had. I did rebid 2S and we ended in 4S making 5.

I got to thinking later that maybe this auction should show a good heart suit (no kidding) together with a good three card spade holding. That is, the message should be "I don't want to insist on hearts. If your hearts are crummy and your spades are good, 4S might be better." At the time he bid 2C I might, as far as he knew, have five spades. With reasonably good hearts and with three good spades he would not want to directy bid some number of hearts. So he tries 2C. Now I bid 2D and he is still uncertain about strain so he bids 2H to see what I do.

This seems not entirely crazy to me. But I was a bit confused.

So, briefly, I am thinking that with three spades, five hearts, and a great hand the auction might go this way.. It wasn't what he had, but it seems like this could be right.

We had an eight card spade fit. This I was not expecting.

Over opponent's 1-opener, with a strong hand, some Scottish players

• Double to show a strong flexible hand e.g. 4441 or 5440 or 5431 or 6430 or (at a pinch) 6331 with good trebletons.
• Jump-cue (here 3♣) with a strong hand and a good long suit -- initially asking for a stop -- but you may have no intention of playing in notrump. A useful convention in responding to the jump-cue is that the cheaper minor (or some other bid) is defined as a negative. Other suit bids deny a stop but show values in the bid suit.

[kenberg]

Using the full editor you can correct mistakes, including misspellings in the topic title. Over opponent's 1-opener, with a strong hand, some Scottish players

• Double to show a strong flexible hand e.g. 4441 or 5440 or 5431 or (at a pinch) 6331 with good trebletons.
• Jump-cue (here 3♣) with a strong hand and a good long suit -- initially asking for a stop -- but you may have no intention of playing in notrump. A useful convention in responding to the jump-cue is that the cheaper minor (or some other bid) is defined as a negative. Other suit bids deny a stop but show values in the bid suit.

 

I fixed the sub-title. Thanks, I never new I could do that.

[kenberg]

fantasy can be fun, occasionally even useful, so I will imagine a hand for partner, and speculate on how he might see things.

 

 

[hv=pc=n&n=skq2hak962dak72c2&d=w&v=0&b=8&a=1cdp1s]133|200[/hv]

 

At this point, the hand might well belong in 4S. Or in 4H. Or?

 

So he bids 2C and I respond 2D.

 

If he is trusts me for four cards in this second suit, he may feel optimistic about a 5D contract. If S has a 4=1=4=4 shape with the ace of spades, it appears that 5D is a fair bet: Case the AK of diamonds trusting they split 3-2 and set out to develop the long heart be AK and two ruffs. If hearts are 5-5 instead of 4-3, maybe the spades are 3-3.

 

Still, it would be understandable that he does not wish to give up in hearts. If be any chance S is 4=3=3=3, perhaps a remote chance since EW have not been advertising their nine card club fit, then he wants to be in hearts. i Ithink this is possible, since opener could have five clubs. E would not necessarily bid 2 or 3 clubs over the double on a four card holding and zip, and W would probably not bid 2C over 1S on a five card holding and limited values. So it could be this way.

 

At any rate, it seems likely to me that N would start with a double, then bid 2C, then 2H. What else? Thinking this way, we are not in a total gf (S might have nothing) and hearts are not set as trump. But it seems that we find spades when S has five cards, we find hearts when S has three cards, and we find diamonds when we belong in diamonds.

 

This wasn't the way that it was, but it seems to me that it could have been.

 

With the hand I actually had, we will presumably end in a game opposite this fantasy N hand. It might not work out. 4S is in deep stuff if the defense begins with AK of clubs. I suppose ruff the club, cash KQ of trump, cash top hearts, ruff heart cash spade. If hearts and spades are 3-3 you are home. 4H is better, presumably the heart Q is onside, so five heart tricks are available on a 3-3 split. If the play begins AK of clubs, there will be some decisions to make but i suspect the play goes: Ruff the second club, spade to the ace, run the J of hearts.Ten tricks wit Qxx onside.

[aguahombre]

The hand above presented by Ken looks like a Double followed by a 2H continuation over 1S.

 

Too much to overcall by about a King, doubt about what trump should be, only five hearts. Why torture partner with a second cue?

[Phil]

Agree with Agua. The ♠KQx should not deter the doubler from making the normal call of 2♥.

 

As I read the thread I was picturing more along the likes of Kx AKQxx AKx Ax.

[billw55]

Agree with Agua. The ♠KQx should not deter the doubler from making the normal call of 2♥.

 

As I read the thread I was picturing more along the likes of Kx AKQxx AKx Ax.

That would leave opener with some pretty serious dreck. I was thinking longer hearts but less in high cards, so opener can have his bid too. Perhaps Kx AKQxxxx x AKx or similar.

 

Anyway, agree that the 2♣ cue in unneeded with the actual hand. 2♥ leaves plenty of room later to just bid spades, which should then be clear as to length.

[neilkaz]

For me, doubling and then cue bidding shows a tremendous hand basically 2♣ strength in trick taking ability and of course when finding responder with an ace, game must be played.

[kenberg]

Agree with Agua. The ♠KQx should not deter the doubler from making the normal call of 2♥.

 

As I read the thread I was picturing more along the likes of Kx AKQxx AKx Ax.

 

Hand strength aside for the moment, the heart suit here is better than the one in my fantasy North hand. I was thinking that the cue followed by the hearts shows less confidence in hearts as trump. the direct heart bid (after the 1S response) shows more confidence. I promise to think about it, but I am not convinced.

 

Of course this monster is too strong to just double and then bid 2H over the 1S response so it is true that I would double and then bid 2C. There is never a perfect match of a bid for every hand, a hand for every bid. But I get my fantasy N hand more often than I get this one.

 

 

I concede, to you and to the many, that I am outvoted here.

 

Oh. And I hope it is clear that I appreciate the response from you and everyone, even if I need to think a bit before buying into it.

[quiddity]

2d was non-forcing and perforce a gross underbid.

 

Haven't seen any comments about this. Do people agree? I thought the cuebid here was "forcing to suit agreement".

[aguahombre]

Haven't seen any comments about this. Do people agree? I thought the cuebid here was "forcing to suit agreement".

Wank's point is that advancer's range, previously zero to 7, has been suggested as the lower part, by the 2d rebid. Compared against that, he has a mountain. I don't think advancer could do anything about that. 2nt would have been a little shakey with jxxx of clubs, so maybe he just had to punt and let his high part of the range be a secret for the moment.

[karlson]

Haven't seen any comments about this. Do people agree? I thought the cuebid here was "forcing to suit agreement".

 

I think this is probably a good place to play the cheapest step as an artificial negative. Without agreeement, I would have thought 2♠ was non-forcing and everything else forcing.

[kenberg]

I did not think of 2D as "forcing be agreement". Indeed we had no agreement. But I thought it "forcing" in that, after the cue bid, if partner has diamonds he would naturally raise diamonds, and if partner did not have diamonds he would get me out of diamonds and tell me what he did have. Not that I was going to be all that happy if he raised diamonds. Truth be told, after the 2C cue I did not have any good ideas. Calling 2D a punt sounds about right.

 

I admit it gets a little tough after I bid 2D and partner bids 2H. I'm thinking I should just have bid 4H. I have to show some values sometime and partner did bid hearts without any encouragement from me.

 

If I go the alternative route of bidding 3C over 2C and partner now bids 3H I am not in any better shape as near as I can see. After 3C I can hardly pass, so I bid 4H, right?

[aguahombre]

I did not think of 2D as "forcing be agreement". Indeed we had no agreement. But I thought it "forcing" in that, after the cue bid, if partner has diamonds he would naturally raise diamonds, and if partner did not have diamonds he would get me out of diamonds and tell me what he did have. Not that I was going to be all that happy if he raised diamonds. Truth be told, after the 2C cue I did not have any good ideas. Calling 2D a punt sounds about right.

 

I admit it gets a little tough after I bid 2D and partner bids 2H. I'm thinking I should just have bid 4H. I have to show some values sometime and partner did bid hearts without any encouragement from me.

 

If I go the alternative route of bidding 3C over 2C and partner now bids 3H I am not in any better shape as near as I can see. After 3C I can hardly pass, so I bid 4H, right?

When partner cued 2c after your 1♠ advance, a re-cue 3c, IMO, would look something like Axxx JTx Jxx Jxx. Close, but, not quite what you held. With my example, you would get your strength and your tolerance for any strain all out there in one swell foop.

[apollo1201]

You could also bid 3NT after cuing the cue (max lf 1st answer so probably 6 to bad 8) and partner's 3H. A not so imaginative partner should figure out a weak stopper and for sure no fifth spade so hopefully 2 Hs (I however wonder what the 2nd bid could be Axxx x xxxxx Qxx: 3D but does it say sth about respective lengths of S/D). And pull or pass depending on his hand.

[jodepp]

1) Partner has a moose (obvious).

 

2) I have a complementary moose. How can 3♥ be wrong after pard's 2♥? I have a bullet and two heart fillers. Anything other than 3♥ now muddies the water. For example, 2♠ is hardly a 'control' bid. Why throw curveballs and bean partner? Just give the poor guy some good news and THEN cuebid.

[kenberg]

You could also bid 3NT after cuing the cue (max lf 1st answer so probably 6 to bad 8) and partner's 3H. A not so imaginative partner should figure out a weak stopper and for sure no fifth spade so hopefully 2 Hs (I however wonder what the 2nd bid could be Axxx x xxxxx Qxx: 3D but does it say sth about respective lengths of S/D). And pull or pass depending on his hand.

 

I unfortunately muddied the waters on this topic. I'll explain so you do not have to page back through. That J of clubs I originally posted was the 7. If the 7 were actually the J, I agree entirely. I like to think that I even might have done it. With essentially all opponent's values with W, I think 3NT could be very playable.

[kenberg]

1) Partner has a moose (obvious).

 

2) I have a complementary moose. How can 3♥ be wrong after pard's 2♥? I have a bullet and two heart fillers. Anything other than 3♥ now muddies the water. For example, 2♠ is hardly a 'control' bid. Why throw curveballs and bean partner? Just give the poor guy some good news and THEN cuebid.

 

I agree that 2S was a bad call. Absolutely.