Help me fix my system

[mgoetze]

So in my Transfer Walsh system, I have the surprisingly rare sequence 1♣-1♥; 2♣. Responder has shown 4+ spades, not 4-4 in the majors, could have longer diamonds (or clubs) if not GF. Opener has shown an unbalanced hand with 5+ clubs, 11-15 points, and 0-2 spades.

 

Now I thought I was being clever when I came up with the idea of switching responder's 2♦ and 2♥ rebids here such that 2♦ shows 4+ hearts and 2♥ shows 4+ diamonds, with opener either "raising" (e.g. 1♣-1♥; 2♣-2♦; 2♥, showing a doubleton spade, or else showing max/min via 2NT/3♣.

 

Unfortunately, this has caused some unwanted memory strain in this rare sequence (especially since 1♣-1♦; 2♣ is completely different) and has a bit of a hole with regards to single-suited responding hands. I'm sure I could plug the hole by putting strong single-suiters into 2♦ or 2♥ and codifying the followups even further, but that would just worsen the memory problems.

 

So does anyone have a suggestion for simple, elegant followups in this situation? Should I make 2♥ non-forcing and 2♦ an artificial force promising nothing? Or should I give up on the ability to get out in 2♥?

[karlson]

Sorry, it's not really clear to me what problem you're trying to solve. Standard of 2♥ non-forcing and 2♦ as an artificial force seems to work ok. You can play 3♦ as 5-5 GF to take some of the hands out of 2♦, and if you're willing to play 2n forcing, you can take even more hands out of 2♦.

[PrecisionL]

Difficult to suggest other approaches without more information.

I would want to know what kind of jump shifts you are playing? Weak, Strong, or Invitational? Invitational or forcing jump shifts over 1♣ might take some hands out of the 2-level transfer of 2♦ or 2♥.

[mgoetze]

I would want to know what kind of jump shifts you are playing? Weak, Strong, or Invitational?

The not-showing-spades-at-all kind. If responder has spades, he bids 1♥, period.

[nullve]

Which hand types with 2-S5C do you include in your 2C rebid? Just 1(43)5 or 0445 outside your 1N rebid range?

[steve2005]

its nice if you have a way to show limited hands with 5-4 in majors. May you only show one 54 if that's a problem.

 

Ive seen 1N used for this then your 2S bid is overloaded or a jump to 2D/2H

 

Then you can have 2H nat force

 

 

 

[mgoetze]

Which hand types with 2-S5C do you include in your 2C rebid? Just 1(43)5 or 0445 outside your 1N rebid range?

It could also be 2(42)5, we have the option of showing that as a balanced hand but if the values are concentrated in the suits we would show it as unbalanced. And obviously the 2♣ rebid can also be made with more than 5 clubs, e.g. 2236.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by "outside your 1N rebid range", our 1NT rebid shows 17-19 balanced, and as I said, 2♣ shows 11-15 unbalanced (i.e. not 2335).

[mgoetze]

its nice if you have a way to show limited hands with 5-4 in majors. May you only show one 54 if that's a problem.

 

Ive seen 1N used for this then your 2S bid is overloaded or a jump to 2D/2H

 

Then you can have 2H nat force

It's an interesting thought - I currently use all of 1NT/2♣/2♦ (responding to 1♣) as hands with diamonds. Perhaps my 1♠ response (4+ clubs, no major) is somewhat underloaded, and with a redistribution I could perhaps free up one of those responses to show a 5=4 majors hand (4=5 I don't really think is a problem). It's a bit too major a change for what I'm looking to do now but I would keep it in mind if I were starting over.

[awm]

Here's one possibility:

 

2d = various inv hands or just looking for the best game

... 2h = denies four hearts

... 2s = four hearts, will not have 3S

2h, 2s = less than inv, natural

2nt = GF, ask pattern

... 3c = 6+ clubs no side suit some shortage

... 3red = 4-suit

... 3s = three spades

... 3nt = 2(23)6 or 2227

3c = GF raise

3-red = natural 5/5 GF

3s = good 6+ suit GF

3nt = to play

 

After 1c-1h!-2c-2d!-2h!:

2s = 5-6s inv (partner can pass w/2)

2nt, 3c = natural inv

3d = 4-6 inv (natural)

3h = 5-5 natural inv

3s = 6+S strong suit inv

3nt = 5s, choice of games

 

After 1c-1h!-2c-2d!-2s!:

 

2nt,3c = inv natural

3d = inv 4/6

3h = inv 4h

3s = 6+S inv

3nt, 4h = to play (with 5s)

 

I'm assuming 3415 and 3406 are spade raises if too weak to reverse, so opener showing four hearts also denies three spades.

[PhilKing]

Here's one possibility:

 

2d = various inv hands or just looking for the best game

... 2h = denies four hearts

... 2s = four hearts, will not have 3S

2h, 2s = less than inv, natural

2nt = GF, ask pattern

... 3c = 6+ clubs no side suit some shortage

... 3red = 4-suit

... 3s = three spades

... 3nt = 2(23)6 or 2227

3c = GF raise

3-red = natural 5/5 GF

3s = good 6+ suit GF

3nt = to play

 

After 1c-1h!-2c-2d!-2h!:

2s = 5-6s inv (partner can pass w/2)

2nt, 3c = natural inv

3d = 4-6 inv (natural)

3h = 5-5 natural inv

3s = 6+S strong suit inv

3nt = 5s, choice of games

 

After 1c-1h!-2c-2d!-2s!:

 

2nt,3c = inv natural

3d = inv 4/6

3h = inv 4h

3s = 6+S inv

3nt, 4h = to play (with 5s)

 

I'm assuming 3415 and 3406 are spade raises if too weak to reverse, so opener showing four hearts also denies three spades.

 

I play something almost identical to this - I like the invitational hand going through 2♦ and having two main ways to force (plus a few other specific ways).

 

It's ostensibly not for those who like a simple system, but it can be done in such a way that shares common principles with many other sequences.

[phoenix214]

What are all your responses to 1C - out of curiosity?

[mgoetze]

Here's one possibility:

Thanks - you somewhat missed the mark as to my personal needs, though, because you have opener showing 3 spades in several places which he can't have in my system (all the unbalanced hands with 3-card support complete the transfer for me). I'm not sure how I feel about 2NT being game-forcing, I'll have to think more about that.

 

Anyway, it seems there's a clear consensus that 2♥ and 2♠ should be natural and nonforcing with 2♦ as some sort of omnibus bid, so thank you all for your input on that.

[mgoetze]

What are all your responses to 1C - out of curiosity?

1♦/♥: 4+ hearts/spades

1♠: 4+ clubs no major

1NT/2NT/3♦/3NT: 3=3=4=3 or 5♦(332) shapes various ranges - 3♦/3NT can have 4 clubs also

2♣: 6+ diamonds weak or 5+ diamonds GF

2♦: 6+ diamonds INV

2♥/♠: short major, 9+ cards in minors, INV or slam-going

3♣: 6+ clubs weak

3♥/♠: short major, 9+ cards in minors, GF

[phoenix214]

I think you have too many responses focused on the minors - and the 1D/1H responses might have some hands too much.

 

I acutally decided to make a weird twist in the response scheme i played over 1C to help with memory issues. At least they seem to work - the idea is borrowed from Ambra and Fantunes - that is using 2♦ and 2♥ as hearts and spades.

These transfers promise a) a weak jump shift in the suit b) a game going hand with atleast 5+

The idea is to simplify the auctions over transfer walsh on the first go. I know you can use checkback and or what not but this simplifies these auctions. This is how Fantunes have their responses over 1C as well(they have 2M as natural 5+ and GF, so this is a small modification).

 

Now going back to the original problem - in the given situation just use the cheapest suit as some sort of force or keep it natural. It is simpler. With 5-4 with the proposed changed you would start 1C-2H, 2S-3H showing 5-4 and game going - not perfect but simple. If you have a strong hand - I think you can still find the clubs.

 

As for one more - i do think your 1S is underused. You can add some hand types there.

[nullve]

If simplicity is important, why not think your 2C rebid as a standard Precision 2C opening, except that it shows

 

11-15, 2-S6+C or 2-S4R5C

 

instead of

 

11-15, 6+ C or 4M5C?

 

Then you could play

 

1C-1H; 2C-2D(relay); ?:

 

2H/2N+: same as 2H/2N+ over 2C-2D in standard Precision, except that Opener has now already denied 3+ S

2S = 2-S4+ D, but with continuations analogous to those in standard Precision after 2C-2D; 2M

[Zelandakh]

One easy solution (off the top of my head so not tested) would be to extend the transfers further:-

 

2♦ = 4+ hearts

2♥ = 6+ spades

2♠ = range ask

2NT = 3+ clubs, INV+

3♣ = 5+ diamonds, INV+ (you could make it GF if preferred and run the invites through 2♠)

3♦ = weak, nat

 

Such a method is not as optimized as Adam's but it is relatively easy to remember and it might be possible to rearrange it to match the 1NT structure being used, making it even easier.

[The Pud]

If it's the 5♠4♥ minimum hand opposite 4♥5♣ less than reverse hands you're worried about you could play a responder's Reverse Flannery bid, I play:

 

1♣ - 2♦ as 5+♠4+♥ less than a 10 count, you can then get:

 

1♣ - 1♥ (showing spades) - 2♣ - 2♥ as natural but 10+ and F1, and only 5♠5♥ if GF as you can also play:

 

1♣ - 1♥ (showing spades) - 2♣ - 3♥ as 5♠5♥, invitational, NF

 

 

 

If you hate rebidding 2♣ on 4-5 in the minors and poor club suits you could do one of two things:

 

Complete the transfer to show any hand with diamonds and clubs, then use 2♦ as your forcing raise with support

 

OR

 

Open 1♦ on hands with longer clubs below reversing values and fiddle with rebids to show this hand:

1♦ - 1M - 1NT to show the longer diamonds hand to remove the need for false preference and then:

1♦ - 1M - 2♣ as the 4-5 in the minors minimum hand

 

Now the nice thing is you can have your relay after 1♣ - 1Red - 2♣ as 2♦ as most of the time partner will not have 4 diamonds (this can help you GF with clubs for example)

 

 

It does feel like you've overloaded your higher level bids to deal with the minors