Extra values

[ahydra]

Wow, much to catch up on here:

 

fourdad - no, a double-then-bid should show more than this and preferably a 6-card suit (or at the very least an unbalanced hand). Our style is to play this as about 18+.

 

the_clown - I don't think partner should necessarily expect a 6-card suit. We would overcall 2C on most decent 5-4s.

 

wanoff - I think nige1 was just ranking the options, not giving them marks out of 10.

 

bbradley62 - I'm confused at your comment "It's odd (I toned that down from my first few choices) to present the question with the presumption that the action taken by your experienced partner was so wrong as to not be considered." I never mentioned whether it was my partner or myself who bid 2C; in fact it was me holding this hand.

 

Francis - your comment was not harsh at all, indeed it was quite informative. I thought overcall-then-X was standard for showing a maximum overcall, but I think what you're getting at (and wank alluded to this as well) is that the hand is not as good as it looks because the ♥KQ doubleton sucks. This was a key point that I failed to take into account at the table.

 

For the doublers, in addition to 1eyedjack's question can I ask another - after 1H-(X)-2H, what is your minimum requirement for 2S by advancer?

 

ahydra

[jdonn]

I think overcalling anything but 1NT is pretty wrong. We have a balanced 16 with hearts stopped. No need to overthink it. We meet the basic requirements for a double or a 2♣ bid but they don't seem to match the nature of our hand.

[MrAce]

We don't really have three suits do we? I think most people would say that a suit comprises at least 4 cards.

 

What I see is:

- we are single-suited

- we don't have a fourth spade

- we might miss a club fit when partner bids 2D with say 3343 (potentially a disaster at matchpoints)

- we don't have an easy call when partner comes back with 3D

- after (1H)-X-(2H)-p; (p) we're also a bit stuck

- we have an excellent club suit which we really do want led

- after (1H)-2C-(2H)-p; (p) we can describe our flattish shape and extras pretty much perfectly with a double.

 

I'm interested to hear the arguments for X - indeed I expect there are some good ones. But I think this is more a style thing rather than an entire country of bridge players being bad bidders.

 

ahydra

 

Oh dear....

 

-We are single suited - Nope you are not, you have a balanced hand.

-We do not have 4th spade -Having 4th spade is ideal for doubling 1♥. But this is not the definition of a T/O double over an opening bid. It is values+ 3+ cards in unbid suits or extras (17+)

-We might miss a club fit...etc - You might miss 5-3 ♠ fit, you might miss 5-3 ♦ fit and you might miss the chance to play 1 NT, if you start 2♣ and pd does not have enough values to bid over 2♣ Do not cherry pick 1 bad thing that can happen over others, conveniently.

-We don't have an easy bid if pd comes back with 3 ♦.... I hope you are being sarcastic! Really? You have 16 hcps, pd says he has 9-11 hcp and long diamonds, and you have stopper + 3 card ♦ and do not know what to bid? 3 NT and expect it to be the same in all other tables unless your pd made a gross 3♦ bid.

-We have an excellent clubs suit which we want to be led - Yes, you do have a very good suit but you do not even know yet who will be on lead. Still this is by far the best thing you mentioned in your list.

- After 1♥-(2♣)-2♥....etc we have a perfect double. You are cherry picking auction again. Use your imagination, there are so many other ways this auction may come to you on your next turn.

There is a reason, why good players who replied, did not even consider 2♣ as an option. So it is not even a close call for them. You may defend your ground all day long if you want to. But then again, why would you ask this anyway if you have such strong opinions about how to bid this hand and won't even try to understand that they did not even consider 2♣ as an option.

[Jinksy]

Ok, so double with (a slight flavouring of 1N). Next question:

 

Would the doublers always X 1H on every 5332 hand with three spades, enough values to bid, and no decent stop in their suit? Or can you make it extreme enough to bid 2♣, eg with xxx xxx Ax AKQJx? If the latter, what's the borderlineiest hand on which you'd dither?

[ahydra]

...

You may defend your ground all day long if you want to. But then again, why would you ask this anyway if you have such strong opinions about how to bid this hand and won't even try to understand that they did not even consider 2♣ as an option.

 

Whoa.

 

For starters the main point of OP was what to do after 3H, not after 1H.

 

Second, the hand is "single-suited" in that it has only one suit of 4+ cards, and only one suit worth talking about. Overall it is balanced, but we already opted not to treat it as balanced to some extent when we chose X rather than 1NT.

 

Thirdly, the 1H-?-2H auctions could equally be something like 1H-2C-p-p; 2H, 1H-X-1S-p; 2H, etc.

 

Most importantly, I don't plan on "defending my ground all day long". This is a discussion forum so I intend to have a discussion - and learn from those who are better than me at the game.

 

I didn't like X initially because the values are concentrated in one suit (and the enemy suit where I'm short) and I don't have two suits of 4+ cards. It feels like a misdescription and perhaps jdonn's and nige1's practical approach of just bidding 1NT and being done with it is therefore best. But I'm coming round to the idea of X having read the arguments from Frances, and will show this thread to my partner to see what he thinks.

 

On Jinksy's xxx xxx Ax AKQJx surely we have to bid 2C (or even pass?) as a matter of practicality. It gets more interesting if you make it 3235 with say AQx diamonds, or something like 1eyedjack's variation where we need to do something but just about every option looks horrible.

 

ahydra

[mikeh]

I am very late to this thread.

 

FWIW, I would be strongly against overcalling 1N, even at imps, because KQ tight in hearts is such a horrible holding. The good club suit, which might allow us to run 6 tricks once we win the 1st heart, isn't enough to make up for this awful holding opposite a passed hand. In my opinion, KQx would be about 1.5 tricks better than KQ...almost a full trick because we expect to win only 1 trick with the latter and 2 with the former (recognizing that Jxx or 10xxx, etc, in partner's hand impacts this) and a bit more because having 2 heart stoppers will give us a tempo advantage in establishing other winners.

 

I would hate 2♣ even more. We have a lot of losers, despite our hcp, and we absolutely do not want partner to over-compete in clubs with such a sterile hand, loaded with defence and minimal, for the values, on offence. Meanwhile, should partner hold 5+ in either spades or diamonds, which is quite possible, we may well end up playing our 5=2 or even 5=1 club fit with a very playable fit elsewhere.

 

Pass is giving up.

 

So double, while not exactly classic, is the only palatable choice for me. Yes, I'd like longer spades, weaker (shorter) hearts, and better diamonds, but I do have support for all the unbid suits. I'd double with 10xx KQ Kxx AKJxx and like it even less.

 

'Flexible' is a very overused word when describing bidding choices....but it became overused because the concept was and is so powerful. When one has a range of choices, none of which is perfect, then one will usually do best by selecting the (plausible) choice that is the most flexible, and imo double stands out over all else in that regard.

[MrAce]

Whoa.

 

For starters the main point of OP was what to do after 3H, not after 1H.

 

.

 

Do you agree with 2C (rather than 1NT)? What now?

 

ahydra

 

And if you care to read it again, I quoted the part where you made a long list of why you think overcalling 2♣ is better. And I replied to it. Did you not notice?http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif

There were 2 questions you asked in OP. And there is a reason why people focused on question about 2♣. http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif

But it was probably a bad idea to reply, on my end, where the OP did not even consider DBL an option.

 

 

 

 

[Finch]

Ok, so double with (a slight flavouring of 1N). Next question:

 

Would the doublers always X 1H on every 5332 hand with three spades, enough values to bid, and no decent stop in their suit? Or can you make it extreme enough to bid 2♣, eg with xxx xxx Ax AKQJx? If the latter, what's the borderlineiest hand on which you'd dither?

 

On a normal hand I would double.

Extreme hands (such as your example) I agree will overcall. I will overcall more often on weaker hands, and when I am opposite a passed partner i.e. where lead direction is more important than potentially winning the auction.

It's the same reason I like 1NT more on the original hand opposite a non-passed-partner, because the chance that we have game just on high cards is much higher and a double won't always get us there.

[nige1]

2/10 seems a bit on the low side for double. I'd score it a 10.

I tired of explaining my marking suggestion :( so now I just rank the bids in my chosen order :)

[GrahamJson]

It's 1NT for me. Ok, the heart stop isn't ideal but in other respects it's the most descriptive bid. You will be on lead against a heart contract, so that reduces any advantage that a2C might have. Partner is unlikely to bid NT so this may be your only chance. On a good day he may turn up with Jxx.

[Phil]

I don't have strong feelings against 1N and double. I'd probably choose 1N at IMPs and x at MPs.

 

2♣ is terrible. Those that choose it should be required to read 10 years of forum posts discussing the merits of doubling on 5m2theirsuit33. Oh, and everything else for that matter.

[1eyedjack]

I don't see anyone jumping to answer my question in post #25. Perhaps it is too trivial. Perhaps it is too hard. Perhaps it is just thread drift and unworthy.

[MrAce]

I don't see anyone jumping to answer my question in post #25. Perhaps it is too trivial. Perhaps it is too hard. Perhaps it is just thread drift and unworthy.

 

2♣

[mcphee]

For the 2C bidders I hope dummy hits with 5 spades and a stiff C.

[Mbodell]

I don't see anyone jumping to answer my question in post #25. Perhaps it is too trivial. Perhaps it is too hard. Perhaps it is just thread drift and unworthy.

 

2♣ for me when it is 2=3=3=5 and Txx in their suit so no 1NT. Even with only two spades when they are KQ I might be tempted to X some of the time, but the 5 card minor is so good that I don't have to distort with the X.

 

On the OP hand I bid 1NT, but X is fine. I used to bid 2♣ routinely here on OP too, but not anymore.

[helene_t]

Whatever I do first (x, 1NT or 2♣), I have to pass now. Opps are nonvul so if we set them by one trick it probably doesn't make a huge difference if it is doubled or not. If I double and p pulls it I expect to go down in 4♣. I think our best chance is to defend undoubled and hope that opps already are beyond LOTT safety or that they missed game, or that we get some field protection from peers who go for -200 after a 1NT overcall maybe. Otherwise we just have to try to defend better than our peers.

 

I can pass in tempo and once in a blue moon p can double 3♥, in which case I am very happy to sit for it.

[PhilKing]

The frightening thing is that anyone would believe that, having overcalled at red, we have extra values.

[wank]

Though opinion was divided between x and 1nt all the good players are unanimous that 2c is pretty gross and not just a matter of style.

 

I don't mean this to be harsh but based on some of your posts you seem to be in denial on a lot of your bidding related posts. You're evidently keen and i don't know who you are so i've no reason to doubt you're successful in your area, but maybe this could be a wake up call that your bidding knowledge isn't as good as you think. Perhaps it's even holding you back from greater success if the other parts of your game are good enough for you to win regional events as you previously said.

 

By the way what i said about english people is based on my own experience playing abroad. Maybe it's because weak and 4 and many of the non-forcing auction developments (acol) is so bad that once people move beyond that in uk bridge they are at a big advantage and think they have bidding licked, no matter how poorly they're playing whatever they moved to instead.