To bid or not to bid?

[inquiry]

favorable colors: 2S

at equal colors: depending on opps' quality and feeling

at unfav colors: pass, happily.

This thread may open the eyes of some who have never thought about what affect the type of game (matchpoints or imps) and vulnerabilty of self and opponents might have on the bidding (yes there are a few of these people).

 

On this hand, most simply bid 2♠ without comment, or "with trepedation" at this vul at imps, but bid it anyway.

 

Roland and I worry about bidding 2♠ vul at imps (me perhaps slightly more than him). But both agree not vul it is bid at imps (me 2♠, him dbl), and we both would venture a bid at matchpoints.

 

Keylime introduces a different concept into the bidding decision. Him not vul and opponents vul, he bids rightly enough. With both vul, he is leary of bidding, and I assume against good opposition (or someone with a hair trigger on double), he might not bid, but would against probably the vast majority of players (shooting sitting ducks I guess.... concept is to apply pressure against lessor players as they tend to make more mistakes). Finally if he red and the opponents are white, he will gladly pass.

 

I certainly see a reason for bidding 2♠ against weak or timid opponents. IF you are into duck shooting, go for it in that situation. My answers never assume weak opponents, but rahter what I think the right bid is if playing in a knockout event with all good players. But the unfavorable vul is an interesting twist.

 

But Keylime separation on a part score battle hand into if opponents are vul or not when vul is interesting distinction. I might have leaned the other way. At imps, bear in mind that your good opponents will not want to miss a game even if it has slightly less than 50% chance to make. So a pass by you when they are vul is actually safer in one sense to you. Your left hand opponent is more likelly to bid again with anything extra. So if he passes, your partner will know for sure you have a fairly good hand.... making it easier for him to balance. IF they are not vul, your left hand opponent will be more likely to decide not to get too pushy and risk going down in 3♥, so might pass 2♥ with more values. This "extra" value in a pass makes your partner balance more risky. What this means is if both are vul and the bidding goes 2♥-pass-pass to partner, he is more likely to trust that you have some significant values without a useful bid.

 

This latter point is very fine one. I guess I would not worry about it. I would bid 2♠ if I thought it was right, and I would pass if I thought that was right. The slight increased chance partner will balance if you pass and lho passes at both vul is not worth fretting over imo. But maybe some people when weighing all the bid/don't bid issues do factor this in. If I was going to factor it in, I would factor the alternative way of keylime.

[pclayton]

Pass at IMPs. Sure we have a fit, but who says it has to be in spades?

 

I'd rather hold a shapely 8 count than this picture gallery. 2:1 that the ♥K is wallpaper.

 

MP's its tougher, and I probably make a 2♠ call.

[MickyB]

I'd go the same way as you Ben, but your reasons hadn't occured to me. If opps are vul, then we are doing better if 2♥ goes down than if they are NV, therefore there is greater incentive to bid when opps are NV. The typical case for this is deciding whether to bid a minor over opps 1NT at MPs. If opps are vul, we might be trading +100 for +90, or +200 for a partscore. If opps are NV, bidding is more likely to work out.

[Wackojack]

I have really enjoyed and learned from reading this thread, particularly the bridgebrowser analysis done by Ben. Just to add something that hasn't been mulled over already is if the opps are playing 4-card majors. One commonplace opening by Acol players with 15+ balanced 44 in majors is 1H. Now if you come in, particularly with 2S, you will get doubled and find pd with at most 2 spades. Note also your RHO with 6-9 points would raise to 2 with 3 hearts and a doubleton spade most of the time.

[junyi_zhu]

[hv=d=w&v=b&s=sk10975hk8daj6ck64]133|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

West opens 1♥, pass from partner, 2♥ by East, and ??

 

To bid or not to bid. Is it time to get in, or is it better to stay out of this? If you bid, what is your choice?

 

Roland

It's marginal. Either pass or 2S would be OK. Also, it really depends on who you are playing against. If your opps are very solid in defence, I'd pass, because against solid defenders, this hand would get way less tricks than it looks like. If playing against intermediate to advanced players, 2S is probably OK. Sometimes even if you get doubled, you can escape from -500 and only go down one, or in MP, you may go down 1 instead of down two. Anyway, 2S would create some actions for sure and sometimes you do need it.

[luke warm]

~snip~I would say dbl is far worse than 2S. ~snip~

hongjun, you would still say that even with the example hands ben showed?

[flytoox]

~snip~I would say dbl is far worse than 2S. ~snip~

hongjun, you would still say that even with the example hands ben showed?

Hehe, Jimmy, I tend to think so. Note I said dbl is worse than 2S. I didnt say pass is worse than 2S. I can accept pass, but I really think doubling with 5card spade suit is wrong practice.

[HeartA]

~snip~I would say dbl is far worse than 2S. ~snip~

hongjun, you would still say that even with the example hands ben showed?

Hehe, Jimmy, I tend to think so. Note I said dbl is worse than 2S. I didnt say pass is worse than 2S. I can accept pass, but I really think doubling with 5card spade suit is wrong practice.

Agree. With the kings needing protection, and 5-card spades, dbl? no way. I would bid 2♠, though pass is second choice.

[mr1303]

I'd go the same way as you Ben, but your reasons hadn't occured to me. If opps are vul, then we are doing better if 2♥ goes down than if they are NV, therefore there is greater incentive to bid when opps are NV. The typical case for this is deciding whether to bid a minor over opps 1NT at MPs. If opps are vul, we might be trading +100 for +90, or +200 for a partscore. If opps are NV, bidding is more likely to work out.

 

Mike you'd bid on this like a shot, and on plenty worse hands as well.

[MickyB]

Mike you'd bid on this like a shot, and on plenty worse hands as well.

Just cos I would obviously bid at the table doesn't stop me from arguing that bidding is wrong :D Anyway, I think what you meant to say was "Mike, you'd bid on this in tempo, and on plenty of hands with less points but compensating shape" :D

 

I don't actually know what I would do on this hand when vul. Pass or 2♠ - not double. Wouldn't even consider it. Ron said he would prefer to have three hearts; Yes, the hand would probably play better if I had the heart length, but then I could pass and wait to see if pard could balance. I think those that argue that it is clear to bid at MPs and less clear at IMPs are wrong - vul at MPs I'm worried about being clipped for 200, or my bid could tell the opps how to make 3♥ tick instead of 2♥ tick.

[cherdano]

~snip~I would say dbl is far worse than 2S. ~snip~

hongjun, you would still say that even with the example hands ben showed?

For the record, I didn't think 2♠ feared as bad in the hands found by bridgebrowser as Ben put it. For one thing, my partner should know I am prebalancing, so IMHO Ben overrated the danger of getting raised by CHO a little. Then, I have been rarely doubled in a 5-2 fit in 2♠ at IMPs for one down (and the only hand where this was really costly, the opponents were just in a 4-3 fit in hearts -- if that were possible, I guess many of us would be passing). And there were about 3 of the 6 IMPs swings Justin was talking about.

 

About 2♠ versus X: in the example hands, there are a couple of hands where double would get you to a minor instead of 2♠ although they take the same number of tricks, and only a few where the minor would score 2 tricks better. I still prefer 2♠.

[luke warm]

i just don't understand why people prefer 2S when double either gets you to spades or (sometimes) to a better 3m contract... it seems that some prefer 2S in spite of the hands posted

[MickyB]

Because we believe that it will get you to a worse 3m contract more often than it will get you to a better 3m contract, and that it could be important to have 2♠ played from our side.

[han]

This is a great thread, I really enjoyed reading all the comments.

 

I'm not convinced by the passers. Are they really saying that partner should balance on almost anything, even when vulnerable holding a balanced 6-count and 3 hearts? If so, isn't that strategy almost (if not more) dangerous than bidding here?

 

I do not beleive in true OBAR bidding at IMPs, but I do overcall more aggressively when the opponents bid and raise, and my regular partners know that. They also know that I try to bid when I'm short in the opponents' suit and have something, so that they don't have to balance with length and little strength.

 

The doublers seem to think that a double will land you more often in a fit than 2S will. As they are better players than I am, they are doubtlessly right, but this is counter-intuitive for me. Partner won't bid 2S holding a 3244 shape, (or will he?), and certainly not holding 2344. True, with that last hand you have no fit, but I'd rather be in a 5-2 fit at the 2-level than in a 4-3 fit at the 3-level. And when you have fits in spades as well as in a minor, I'd want to play in 2S too!

[luke warm]

Because we believe that it will get you to a worse 3m contract more often than it will get you to a better 3m contract, and that it could be important to have 2♠ played from our side.

first of all, i didn't say that 2S is a bad bid... i only thought double was more flexible, given a bid in the first place... now then, looking at the hands ben posted i'm not sure you get in worse 3m contracts any more often (and i think less often) than you would in 2S contracts

 

that's just my view