Drury Question

[eagles123]

[hv=pc=n&n=saq85hj985dt2cq98&d=w&v=0&b=8&a=ppp1hp]133|200[/hv]

 

imps

 

playing drury (1 way) and no bergen or any other clever methods whats the correct bid

 

thanks

 

Eagles

[Vampyr]

You are playing Drury and you have an appropriate hand, so...

 

The biggest problem with bidding 1♠ is that you might get the dummy.

[kenberg]

This hand is, I think, an advertisement for one way Drury. Let's assume, for the moment, one way reverse Drury.

I bid 2C. If partner bids 2H, less than a full opener, I pass. If partner bids 2D, artificial showing a full opener, I bid 2H. This shows a sort of limit raise in hearts. He knnows I have hearts, although he doesn't know of the fourth heart, he knows I have values but he also knows that a full opener in his hand is not enough. With a slightly stronger hand, I could bid 3H over 2D. So I have a pretty full array after 2C. I can pass 2H, bid 2H over 2D, bid 3H over 2D.

If we are not playing reverse, it's not quite as good. After 2C-2D (sub min) I of course bid 2H. After 2C-2H (full opener) I would pass. I have encouraged him as much as I plan to.

 

Notice that playing 2 way, I can bid 2D if I want to, and show the four card support, but I think the hand barely qualifies. The one way drury helps here to express this modest strength.

[Bbradley62]

playing drury (1 way) and no bergen or any other clever methods whats the correct bid

What would you have done if partner had made his opening bid in first seat? If you would have made a limit raise, then it is right to bid Drury now. If you would have done anything else, then it is right to do that same anything else now.

[Trinidad]

What would you have done if partner had made his opening bid in first seat? If you would have made a limit raise, then it is right to bid Drury now. If you would have done anything else, then it is right to do that same anything else now.

Drury is not a limit raise. It is a good raise, meaning that there are hands that are less than a limit raise that will bid Drury. This hand is a typical example: It is (IMO) not good enough for a limit raise, but certainly good enough for Drury.

 

The reasons why Drury can be weaker than a limit raise:

You are not committed to the three level

You still have the two level to figure out what is going on:

• 2♦ by opener shows a "normal" opening. You will bid 2♥ if you have less than a limit raise.
  
• 2♥ by opener shows a subminimum opening. You will pretty much pass regardless of your hand, without the need to tell your opponents whether they should balance (e.g. if you have the hand from the OP) or not (if you have an 11 point 4333).
  

 

Rik

[Trinidad]

2♣

 

Rik

[gszes]

This hand is one of those that you cannot outright win the post mortem against partner no matter which way they raise hearts (you can turn your back on them for bidding 1s though). It is hard to fault the optimists that want to make a game try at IMPS and I say that even though I think 2h is sufficient (change the heart J to the club J and I am with the game triers). The 4th heart with limited ruffing values is no big deal AND you never know when p has made a lead director with only 4 hearts. If p cannot move over 2h game seems far off BUT I am a pessimist (all those losing lotto tickets have a negative effect):)

[Bbradley62]

Drury is not a limit raise. It is a good raise, meaning that there are hands that are less than a limit raise that will bid Drury.

That sounds like something the partnership has to agree on. There have been several threads in this forum discussing/debating that point.

[Mbodell]

That sounds like something the partnership has to agree on. There have been several threads in this forum discussing/debating that point.

 

Maybe, but it is obviously a better treatment. The lower your bidding, the more flexible you can be. And invites that can get out at the 2 level can be made more easily than invites that force to the 3 level.

[daffydoc]

very chunky hand - whatever type drury u play this hand qualifys - but would not bid past 2H unless partner tries something else. daffydoc

[gordontd]

Notice that playing 2 way, I can bid 2D if I want to, and show the four card support, but I think the hand barely qualifies. The one way drury helps here to express this modest strength.

I know this is the common way of playing two-way Drury, but it does seem inferior to the way I was taught to play it, which is that 2D shows a three-card limit raise and 2C shows a four-card raise, either mixed/constructive or limit. After P-1M-2C, 2D enquires and a return to 2M shows mixed/constructive rather than a limit raise; any other rebid by responder shows a limit raise and is essentially natural.

[wank]

playing 2d as showing a real opener is silly. there are plenty of 'real openers' which have no game interest opposite a passed hand. 2d should show dubiousness as to level, i.e. somewhat above minimum opener or some slamish hands.

 

also it seems my lower end for drury is considerably lower than that for most here. a decent 8 count with 3 cards is fine for me. you have the space, use it. this lets you make a raise on those crappy 3 card hands you would normally have to bid 1nt on, which is obviously superior. noone wants to play 1nt on a combined 18 count with an 8 card heart fit.

[ggwhiz]

Curious to me that this is a simple drury hand but if you were playing 2-way it looks like a constructive raise, at least to me playing reverse Bergen here as well.

 

I'm forced to the 3 level more often but the hoops to be jumped through to stop short here give me a headache.

[ladydoc]

[hv=pc=n&n=saq85hj985dt2cq98&d=w&v=0&b=8&a=ppp1hp]133|200[/hv]

 

imps

 

playing drury (1 way) and no bergen or any other clever methods whats the correct bid

 

thanks

 

Eagles

I would bid 2 hearts definitely. My partner knows how to make game trys. If he is interested in game, his bid is 2 spades, asking, where is your help?

No problem.

ladydoc

[steve2005]

I like playing Drury to include hands that would make a Bergen raise along with limit raises. Yes, requires some discussion but not nearly as complicated as something like Lebensohl. It's probably good to have this discussion on rebids even if using just limit raises.

 

Don't like 2-way, is bad enough to lose a natural 2♣ but to lose a 2♦ too, no thanks.

[kenberg]

playing 2d as showing a real opener is silly. there are plenty of 'real openers' which have no game interest opposite a passed hand. 2d should show dubiousness as to level, i.e. somewhat above minimum opener or some slamish hands.

 

also it seems my lower end for drury is considerably lower than that for most here. a decent 8 count with 3 cards is fine for me. you have the space, use it. this lets you make a raise on those crappy 3 card hands you would normally have to bid 1nt on, which is obviously superior. noone wants to play 1nt on a combined 18 count with an 8 card heart fit.

 

OK, I agree. I guess I put it badly. After P-1M-2C, the bid of 2M should pretty much end the auction unless pushed. The bid of 2D is a hand that could envision going to game opposite something that the passed hand could hold. After P-1M-2C-2D-2M is nothing more to say, such as the posted hand. Right, I did not mean that all opening hands rebid 2D.

[frisbee]

As a purist, let me remind everyone that we are discussing "Fit Drury" and not "Drury", since you are guaranteeing a trump fit. Yes, there is a box on the ACBL convention card to confirm this although many players do not check it because they do not understand what it means. (The original "Drury" convention did not guarantee a trump fit, but most players today play that it does and do not recognize that there is a difference.)

 

As for what I would bid, it is a toss-up between 2H and 2C depending on style and agreements. I would not disagree with my partner's choice. I hope that we all agree that bidding 1S over 1H is a very bad bid.

[frisbee]

After P - 1H -/- 2C - ??, Opener has other choices when playing Fit Drury. Bidding 2D to simply show a good opener is a poor option. Many of us play that 2D, 2S and 3C by Opener are Help Suit Game Tries (and 3D, 3S and 4C by Opener are Splinter Bids). If you want to use Fit Drury to improve your contracts, use the full system and not an abbreviated version.

[jodepp]

I think it's borderline to use Drury here. If my majors were reversed I would definitely NOT use it. This hand has lots of potential as constructed so I guess I would use Drury, but I also have sympathy for 1♠-then-later-raise hearts. I almost always like to describe where my side values lie when I have a fir, something Drury doesn't do.

[kenberg]

After P - 1H -/- 2C - ??, Opener has other choices when playing Fit Drury. Bidding 2D to simply show a good opener is a poor option. Many of us play that 2D, 2S and 3C by Opener are Help Suit Game Tries (and 3D, 3S and 4C by Opener are Splinter Bids). If you want to use Fit Drury to improve your contracts, use the full system and not an abbreviated version.

 

I am going to put in an (unpaid) advertisement here. I bought Mike Lawrence's CD on Conventions at the BBO bookstore some while back. He has a nice discussion of Drury and many other things.An approach I like very much is to just agree to do it Mike's ay, or Joe's way (whoever Joe is). The frisbee way may well be good but someone has to write it all out, there is usually some haggling with partner and so on. If a partner does not want to play Drury I say fine, although I hope to convince him later. If he agrees to play it then it saves a lot of time if we just pick something (I like ML but other options are ok) and do it that way.

 

This same approach can be used with many conventions. It leads quickly to a fairly detailed agreement that each person can review at home in his spare time. For example, ML has ideas about how to follow up after P-1M-2C-2D. They may not be the absolutely best possible, I don't think he claims that they are, but they are simple and they are written down.

[Trinidad]

This hand has lots of potential as constructed so I guess I would use Drury, but I also have sympathy for 1♠-then-later-raise hearts. I almost always like to describe where my side values lie when I have a fir, something Drury doesn't do.

So, if you would bid 1♠, how will you "raise hearts" later?

 

If you rebid 2♥ then that isn't a raise, it is merely showing preference (typically with two hearts only instead of four).

If you rebid 3♥ then that could be construed as a raise, but it will get you to the three level.

 

And finally, you may not get to raise hearts, because 1♠ is not forcing. You may play 1♠ in a 4-3 fit when you likely had a 5-4 heart fit.

 

So, a non forcing 1♠ response is not an option when you have four card heart support. If you want to show your spades (and that may not be a bad idea) you can only do that after you raised hearts and your partner gives you the opportunity. And if the hand were just a bit stronger, the forcing character of Drury achieves just that: You would bid 2♣ and if partner rebids 2♦, you will make a game try with 2♠. If the hand would be still stronger (say 5413) you could even do that when partner rebids 2♥.

 

Rik