Hearts

[antonylee]

Club Swiss

 

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3♥=2♠6♥, 8-11 HCP. What's your plan?

If you think this agreement is silly, you get to bid after 1♠-1N; 3♣-4♥, which is not necessarily better imo.

 

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Do you agree with the initial pass?

3♥=fit showing.

Worth an additional move?

[MrAce]

1- 4♣ natural forcing.

 

2-I have to make another move. We want to be in slam vs a lot of hands some of which can be as low as pd holding only 6 hcps. I'd start with 5♣ showing 1st round control, and if pd bids 5♦ I will bid 5♥ and go from there. Let's don't forget he did jump to game after we bid 3♥. He has either a good hand or he liked something about our previous bid. And he knows we are coming from pass so it should not be hard for him to to figure that we have 5+ spades and a wild shape, which made us bidding suddenly like a bull in china town.

[mikeh]

On the 1st one, I bid 4♥. I don't see what good 4♣ does, since the two things we want to avoid here are telling the opps to lead diamonds or suggesting to partner that clubs should be trumps. Our hearts aren't great but on this auction hearts are where we are playing. The hand is very good, but not good enough that slam is favourite, since he needs magic cards, and we shouldn't play for magic cards, especially when we can't convey to partner that they are magic if he has them.

 

On the second, I agree with timo.

[Cyberyeti]

1: Need to know more about partner and the 3♥ bid, does partner just trot this out if in range and shape ? or does it actually show a good heart suit ? (and btw I would NEVER have to bid in your alternative auction, there are several better ways to bid these).

 

2: I feel the need to move, I'd bid 5♠ warning partner of bad trumps the way we play and suggesting a void to have not keycarded.

[antonylee]

1- 4♣ natural forcing.

Partner cues 4♦, what now?

 

1: Need to know more about partner and the 3♥ bid, does partner just trot this out if in range and shape ? or does it actually show a good heart suit ? (and btw I would NEVER have to bid in your alternative auction, there are several better ways to bid these).

Partner probably has an OK suit, but he doesn't have another way to show this shape & strength.

Which makes me realize that I should probably swap the direct 3♥ (currently 2♠6♥) and 3♥ after 1N (currently 0-1♠6♥), because otherwise responder is stuck after 1♠-1N-2♠ (if he has 2♠6♥ at least he can suppress his heart suit and raise spades).

I'd be happy to hear about your better alternatives.

[MrAce]

Partner cues 4♦, what now?

 

 

4♥, cue, showing an honor in this suit. Since it is pd's long suit can be done by only Q.

[Phil]

i'm curious what people think we would bid over 3♥ with ♠AKxxx ♥Axx ♦xx ♣AQx.

[rmnka447]

1 - 4 ♥ - If partner has 2 ♠ and 6 ♥, it's unlikely that there will be a big club fit. Slam seems very remote. So let's play in the 6-1 fit rather than the 5-2 fit.

 

2 - I agree with the others that you need to make a move. If the negative double is normal, there might be a heart ruff out there. But I'll make a 4 ♣ cue.

[mikeh]

i'm curious what people think we would bid over 3♥ with ♠AKxxx ♥Axx ♦xx ♣AQx.

I suspect you are fishing for the notion that 4♣ is a cuebid in support of hearts, and I agree (if you are) that such is a very useful device, and it might well be something that I would have agreed upon with partner were I to play the 3♥ gadget. I don't...I have another use for it (a splinter, in any suit, opener to ask if interested, with 4m used for two other raise types).

 

I just wouldn't suggest an implied cuebid in an undiscussed auction, but you could sell me on this idea very, very easily.

 

Absent the idea, I would just bid 5♥ as a general, do you like your hand, slam try. Admittedly this may be as much adjective-bridge as 4C cue bid would be, but he knows I didn't keycard so I can't have a hand on which keycard, including exclusion, can be of any use. I'd expect him to move with good hearts (KQxxxx or better) and a side Ace, and that's what I would be hoping for to make slam reasonable. When in doubt, revert to good old fashioned quantitative bidding.

[Phil]

I suspect you are fishing for the notion that 4♣ is a cuebid in support of hearts, and I agree (if you are) that such is a very useful device, and it might well be something that I would have agreed upon with partner were I to play the 3♥ gadget. I don't...I have another use for it (a splinter, in any suit, opener to ask if interested, with 4m used for two other raise types).

 

I just wouldn't suggest an implied cuebid in an undiscussed auction, but you could sell me on this idea very, very easily.

 

Absent the idea, I would just bid 5♥ as a general, do you like your hand, slam try. Admittedly this may be as much adjective-bridge as 4C cue bid would be, but he knows I didn't keycard so I can't have a hand on which keycard, including exclusion, can be of any use. I'd expect him to move with good hearts (KQxxxx or better) and a side Ace, and that's what I would be hoping for to make slam reasonable. When in doubt, revert to good old fashioned quantitative bidding.

 

I can also see using a direct 5♣ as a cue begging for a diamond card. I think it was Gnasher, however, who thought 4♣ WAS a cue and two suiters have to stall with 3♠.

[Cyberyeti]

Partner probably has an OK suit, but he doesn't have another way to show this shape & strength.

Which makes me realize that I should probably swap the direct 3♥ (currently 2♠6♥) and 3♥ after 1N (currently 0-1♠6♥), because otherwise responder is stuck after 1♠-1N-2♠ (if he has 2♠6♥ at least he can suppress his heart suit and raise spades).

I'd be happy to hear about your better alternatives.

 

Well what is 1♠-1N-3♣-3♥ for example ? why do you have to bid 4♥ ?

 

I would actually start with 1♣ (4+) playing what I play and 1♣-1♥-1♠(forcing opposite a real response)-2♥(at least semi constructive, only passed by min with no fit)-2♠(nat F, 5-5/5-6 extras) is a much lower start to the auction.

[antonylee]

Well what is 1♠-1N-3♣-3♥ for example ? why do you have to bid 4♥ ?

I don't have any firm agreements here but I would assume that bidding 3♥ then 4♥ implies doubt about strain whereas a direct 4♥ implies wanting to play there even opposite a stiff (which is what partner had, in this case).

 

I would actually start with 1♣ (4+) playing what I play and 1♣-1♥-1♠(forcing opposite a real response)-2♥(at least semi constructive, only passed by min with no fit)-2♠(nat F, 5-5/5-6 extras) is a much lower start to the auction.

Ah, the advantages of opening 1♣ with 5-5 in the blacks. Oh well.

[MrAce]

On the 1st one, I bid 4♥. I don't see what good 4♣ does, since the two things we want to avoid here are telling the opps to lead diamonds or suggesting to partner that clubs should be trumps. Our hearts aren't great but on this auction hearts are where we are playing. The hand is very good, but not good enough that slam is favourite, since he needs magic cards, and we shouldn't play for magic cards, especially when we can't convey to partner that they are magic if he has them.

 

On the second, I agree with timo.

 

Why miracle cards needed? If we have a shot at grand slam vs and pretty much cold for slam, holding x AJxxxx Ax xxxx or x KJxxxx Ax Qxxx why should we not investigate? Grand slam and Slams have huge bonuses and we will not look for it because we want to conceal the obvious lead in a game with 30 hcps? It is not even MP!! The choice of leads have already been reduced to 2 suits, it is not like you are concealing a lot of things. Or did you think that 3♥ was preemptive?

 

If you make the spade doubleton and diamond singleton it even provides much more variety of hands to make slam.

 

Jx AJxxxx x Qxxx

 

etc

 

Partner cues 4♦, what now?

[mikeh]

Why miracle cards needed? If we have a shot at grand slam vs and pretty much cold for slam, holding x AJxxxx Ax xxxx or x KJxxxx Ax Qxxx why should we not investigate? Grand slam and Slams have huge bonuses and we will not look for it because we want to conceal the obvious lead in a game with 30 hcps? It is not even MP!! The choice of leads have already been reduced to 2 suits, it is not like you are concealing a lot of things. Or did you think that 3♥ was preemptive?

 

If you make the spade doubleton and diamond singleton it even provides much more variety of hands to make slam.

 

Jx AJxxxx x Qxxx

 

etc

I think that expecting partner to hold a stiff diamond pretty much gets us into magic territory already. Note that he cannot be 1=6=2=4, since the 3♥ call promised 2 spades. So you are assuming a decent chance that, with the 19 missing minor suit cards, his 5 will be 1=4. You can test this yourself by sorting out the 19 missing minors, shuffling them, and then dealing 5 into one pile and 14 into the other. I expect that you will need to do this quite a few times in order to get as many as 3 hands where the 5 card holding is 1=4.

[Cyberyeti]

I don't have any firm agreements here but I would assume that bidding 3♥ then 4♥ implies doubt about strain whereas a direct 4♥ implies wanting to play there even opposite a stiff (which is what partner had, in this case).

 

This is fine, it tells me partner's heart suit is up to the job, my stiff Q is now a good holding.

 

Ah, the advantages of opening 1♣ with 5-5 in the blacks. Oh well.

 

We only open 1♣ with a couple of hand types where it can save a lot of space, the really good 5-5 hands and the sort of medium hands with 2 decent 5 card suits but not a hand as good as this, 1♠ otherwise.

 

Does partner ever hold a 7th one for this sequence ?

[MrAce]

I think that expecting partner to hold a stiff diamond pretty much gets us into magic territory already. Note that he cannot be 1=6=2=4, since the 3♥ call promised 2 spades. So you are assuming a decent chance that, with the 19 missing minor suit cards, his 5 will be 1=4. You can test this yourself by sorting out the 19 missing minors, shuffling them, and then dealing 5 into one pile and 14 into the other. I expect that you will need to do this quite a few times in order to get as many as 3 hands where the 5 card holding is 1=4.

 

Oh i did not see or totally ignored the 2♠ mandatory, which is total BS btw. All it says in std use is that it can not have 3 spades. Perhaps he meant not more than 2♠ idk.

 

And no, I am not assuming anything, I am asking pd whether he has it or not. Huge difference between assuming that pd has it and going to slam or assuming pd does not have it and bidding 4♥ for sign off.

[antonylee]

Does partner ever hold a 7th one for this sequence ?

Yes. Like in most non-relay approaches we don't differentiate between 6 and 7 card suits on the first round of a (constructive) auction :-)

 

Oh i did not see or totally ignored the 2♠ mandatory, which is total BS btw. All it says in std use is that it can not have 3 spades.

Why would it be total BS? You have two jumps to 3♥ available, one directly over 1♠ and one via 1NT (F). If you decided to play JS as intermediate (which may or may not be optimal but is probably not total BS), you may as well use that to indicate spade tolerance or lack thereof (especially as 3♥ does take away a lot of space). Now as I noticed above, due to the possibility of a 2♠ rebid over 1N, it may be better to play the other way round (direct 3♥ = 0-1♠) though.

[MrAce]

 

Why would it be total BS? You have two jumps to 3♥ available, one directly over 1♠ and one via 1NT (F).

 

No you don't.

 

Nobody can, unless of course they know exactly what the pd's rebid will be or if opponents will get in or not. And there are a lot of other hands to consider and find a solution how to bid when responder has 5 hcp and 7 card hearts.http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif

So yea, it i pretty much BS and optimistic expectation that they can express both hand types without thinking 1 step further.

[WesleyC]

Although you didn't mention it in your original post, I think you need a suit quality requirement for the 3H bid on the first hand. Assuming you promise decent hearts, then 4H looks automatic.

[antonylee]

Nobody can, unless of course they know exactly what the pd's rebid will be or if opponents will get in or not. And there are a lot of other hands to consider and find a solution how to bid when responder has 5 hcp and 7 card hearts.http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif

So yea, it i pretty much BS and optimistic expectation that they can express both hand types without thinking 1 step further.

If, over your 1NT(F) partner rebids 2♣/♦ then you are fine, if he rebids 2♥ then you are obviously happy, and if he rebids 2♠ you can suppress hearts and support spades. I would say the case of opener jump-shifting is rare enough to be ignored (and it's not as if the hand becomes unbiddable). A weak hand will just bid hearts without jumping at the next opportunity, as in standard.

Certainly this is a bit vulnerable to preemption, although again you have jumps and non-jumps in hearts available (over moderate preemption), and partner can always correct if he knows to expect two-card support.

 

Although you didn't mention it in your original post, I think you need a suit quality requirement for the 3H bid on the first hand. Assuming you promise decent hearts, then 4H looks automatic.

As mentioned above: Partner probably has an OK suit, but he doesn't have another way to show this shape & strength.

[MrAce]

If, over your 1NT(F) partner rebids 2♣/♦ then you are fine, if he rebids 2♥ then you are obviously happy, and if he rebids 2♠ you can suppress hearts and support spades. I would say the case of opener jump-shifting is rare enough to be ignored (and it's not as if the hand becomes unbiddable). A weak hand will just bid hearts without jumping at the next opportunity, as in standard.

Certainly this is a bit vulnerable to preemption, although again you have jumps and non-jumps in hearts available (over moderate preemption), and partner can always correct if he knows to expect two-card support.

 

 

You can not make a system based on IFs.

 

Pd can make a jump shift or opponents can interfere, and you are dead.

 

1♠-(pass)-1NT-(2m)

Pass-(3m)- ?

 

- You bid 3♥ now and pd never knows whether you have 10 hcp 6 card hearts or 4 hcp 7 card hearts. What makes you think that 2 card spades is such an important thing to mention misses by a mile.

 

- Pd rebids 2♠ and yes you found an 8 card spade fit. (say you have 4 hcp and 7 card hearts) and he may have 2-3 card hearts. You can be cold for ♥ game when you can barely make 2♠. OR if you try to bid 3♥ with those hands, he will never know whether you are very weak or started 1 NT with the intention of inviting in hearts at the first place.

 

- Pd may make a jump shift to a 3m. Same problem. Even worse, here 3♥ may not even have to be 6-7 card if you are unable to or not willing to bid 3 NT. Or you bid 3 NT with stopper(s) in 4th suit (this is 4th suit to you only since you see hearts in your hand) and hearts gets lost during the auction.

 

But yea, IF pd bids as you want him to or opponents do not get in, you can successfully show both hearts invitation with 2 card spades and hearts invitation with short spades. What a science and improvement to our auction!! And wait for a decade for teh hand that it really mattered. Not only you gain little or no edge at all and disable your side IF god forbid pd/opps does not bid what you are prepared for, but also a nice road map to defenders each and every single time you declare.

 

If you think that showing 2 card spades (or lack of it) is more important than being able to show x AQJxxx Kxx Jxx and x AT9xxxx xx xxx differently, over every rebid of pd and bid by opponents, then I say you are nuts! Sorry.

[Zelandakh]

Partner cues 4♦, what now?

Is this really a cue bid here? What would be bid with a good hand for clubs and no diamond control? 4NT Last Train would be possible but we already know from the earlier discussion that the agreements are not detailed enough for this to be clear. Without clear agreements I would take 4♦ as our only forcing club raise and not as a promise of something in diamonds. Maybe best would be to make the clear agreements before incorporating the gadget though...

[MrAce]

Is this really a cue bid here? What would be bid with a good hand for clubs and no diamond control? 4NT Last Train would be possible but we already know from the earlier discussion that the agreements are not detailed enough for this to be clear. Without clear agreements I would take 4♦ as our only forcing club raise and not as a promise of something in diamonds. Maybe best would be to make the clear agreements before incorporating the gadget though...

 

 

I would bid 4♦ with no clear direction of what to do (such as with only 3 clubs) and asking pd to bid a game and play, unless it is followed by 5♣ later. If he has 4 of them he can bid 5♣ over my 4M for encouraging or direct 5♣ over 4♣ if discouraging for slam.

[antonylee]

Is this really a cue bid here? What would be bid with a good hand for clubs and no diamond control? 4NT Last Train would be possible but we already know from the earlier discussion that the agreements are not detailed enough for this to be clear. Without clear agreements I would take 4♦ as our only forcing club raise and not as a promise of something in diamonds. Maybe best would be to make the clear agreements before incorporating the gadget though...

Indeed, more detailed follow-ups would be useful. It has become not so rare, though, to see 1M-3m played as invitational, but I haven't see much about auctions such as 1S-3D(inv); 4C(=?)-4H(=?) either.

At the table my assumption was that after the JS, 4♣ is a priori a cue rather than length, and that the only way to play in clubs is by jumping to 6♣ or via a pick-a-slam 5N.