billw55 Posted June 30, 2015 Report Share Posted June 30, 2015 1NT-p-2♣-p2NT 1NT is 15-17, 2♣ is normal stayman. What meaning, if any, do you assign to 2NT here? What do you consider standard? What would you expect from a pickup partner? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyberyeti Posted June 30, 2015 Report Share Posted June 30, 2015 Normal stayman means different things to different people, can partner have a 4522 0 count for example ? or is it always constructive ? I'd suggest it's a very maximum hand 4-4 in the majors, particularly if this was potentially opposite a really poor hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted June 30, 2015 Report Share Posted June 30, 2015 Does not exist. I think in very old fashioned Stayman it showed both majors, but no longer exists as part of the convention. If a pickup on BBO did it I would definitely assume they have no major and that I can not reliably determine their strength. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diana_eva Posted June 30, 2015 Report Share Posted June 30, 2015 I've had random partners submit that it's standard for 4-4 in majors or a max hand without a major (different people claiming their way is the standard way). I don't know if there's a standard, depends where the opener is from I suppose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helene_t Posted June 30, 2015 Report Share Posted June 30, 2015 Minimum with both majors is/was standard curriculum for beginners in the Netherlands but I have never met anyone actually playing it. A substantial number play both majors any strength. As a beginner in Denmark I learned max without a major. Gerben suggested min with five hearts which is a lot more sensible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billw55 Posted June 30, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 30, 2015 (different people claiming their way is the standard way).This is a chronic problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mbodell Posted June 30, 2015 Report Share Posted June 30, 2015 1NT-p-2♣-p2NT 1NT is 15-17, 2♣ is normal stayman. What meaning, if any, do you assign to 2NT here? What do you consider standard? What would you expect from a pickup partner? The meaning I assign to 2nt is a wake up that 2♣ must not have been "normal stayman". I'd pass or bid 3nt (or 6n or whatever) and treat them as having a balanced 15-17 hand with no 4 card major. Sucks when I had my 4450 0 count, but maybe 2nt will not be a disaster, no double yet, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barmar Posted June 30, 2015 Report Share Posted June 30, 2015 If you only bid Stayman with invitational hands or better, you can use 2NT as a response with one of those meanings. However, I think most people these days play that you can bid Stayman with various kinds of minimum hands, such as 4-3=5-1, planning to pass any response (sometimes called "Garbage Stayman"), or 4-4 majors planning on bidding a pass/correct 2♥ over 2♦ (Creeping Stayman). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilKing Posted June 30, 2015 Report Share Posted June 30, 2015 I would just assume partner has no clue. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diana_eva Posted June 30, 2015 Report Share Posted June 30, 2015 I would just assume partner has no clue. I've always found it interesting to learn such alternative meanings actually. It's clear to me that, if they have learnt those as standard, there's a whole group playing similarly. The first time I've seen a 2NT response to my stayman which turned out to be 4-4 in majors was from an old player (I think he was Italian, don't remember for sure) who was very good at defense and card play, but bid no transfers, stone-age natural style. I did not think he was clueless overall. I thought he was an excellent player with no clue about modern trends in bidding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeh Posted June 30, 2015 Report Share Posted June 30, 2015 given the OP conditions, my guess is a good 17, no major. Of course what is 'should mean' is that I mis-counted and have 18-19, and am praying that you read it correctly. With 20-21, assuming one missed an Ace, one jumps to 3N. I actually had this happen, sort of, many years ago, playing 10-12 1st and 2nd except unfavourable. Partner opened 1N and then over my 2♣ realized that the other side was red as well, and so his 16 hcp hand had not really been shown very accurately. That was a pretty easy read and we fortunately salvaged a push, amidst some laughter from all at the table. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyberyeti Posted June 30, 2015 Report Share Posted June 30, 2015 given the OP conditions, my guess is a good 17, no major. Of course what is 'should mean' is that I mis-counted and have 18-19, and am praying that you read it correctly. With 20-21, assuming one missed an Ace, one jumps to 3N. I actually had this happen, sort of, many years ago, playing 10-12 1st and 2nd except unfavourable. Partner opened 1N and then over my 2♣ realized that the other side was red as well, and so his 16 hcp hand had not really been shown very accurately. That was a pretty easy read and we fortunately salvaged a push, amidst some laughter from all at the table. Announcements of course prevent you getting away with this now. I had worse than that, I looked at my 4234 weak notrump, and after partner transferred to spades, realised that both black suits were clubs, bid 3N for a flat board. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeh Posted June 30, 2015 Report Share Posted June 30, 2015 Announcements of course prevent you getting away with this now. I had worse than that, I looked at my 4234 weak notrump, and after partner transferred to spades, realised that both black suits were clubs, bid 3N for a flat board.screens B-) nobody 'got away' with anything if by that phrasing you suggested anything untoward. Nobody said anything, nobody could see any body language or facial expression, altho my screenmate did quiz me about the 2N bid :P I don't know if my partner's screenmate asked anything. The same partner, arguably the best player with whom I ever had an established partnership, once opened a 10-12 1N with two 4 card heart suits, and a diamond void. That worked out well for us, as it happened. I always enjoyed the table action of the 10-12 1N, tho not usually because of missorting issues :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyberyeti Posted June 30, 2015 Report Share Posted June 30, 2015 screens B-) nobody 'got away' with anything if by that phrasing you suggested anything untoward. Nobody said anything, nobody could see any body language or facial expression, altho my screenmate did quiz me about the 2N bid :P I don't know if my partner's screenmate asked anything. Not at all (I meant got away with as in survived), it's just that without screens you perforce get UI as partner announces the notrump range you don't have (unless he's asleep as well), and you're never going to persuade the director you realised before partner announced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ggwhiz Posted June 30, 2015 Report Share Posted June 30, 2015 I've seen many random treatments on BBO against me but the only time my partner (fresh out of beginner lessons) did it she had 20-21 balanced and was catching up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveMoe Posted July 1, 2015 Report Share Posted July 1, 2015 Sorry I can't find the citation but I recall this proposed to show a 16-17 HCP hand with a 6-card minor 3-2-2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trinidad Posted July 1, 2015 Report Share Posted July 1, 2015 Some people I know play it as a maximum with a five card major. I think that is playable opposite a potential garbage Stayman. The Stayman bidder either has an invitational hand (or better) and the three level can be used to find the right game or he has a hand with both majors and the pair will play in a nine card fit at the three level. Sometimes, a "maximum garbage Stayman" hand will be good enough to bid game. Rik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted July 1, 2015 Report Share Posted July 1, 2015 Sorry I can't find the citation but I recall this proposed to show a 16-17 HCP hand with a 6-card minor 3-2-2.This was a treatment way back in the 60's and 70's -- abandoned when these pairs discovered drop-dead Stayman, but still could be used if Diamonds was the 6-bagger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zelandakh Posted July 1, 2015 Report Share Posted July 1, 2015 The expected meaning for a pick-up partner depends to some extent on their nationality. In Germany this shows both majors and that is standard even though some pairs play the "unusual" variant where only 2♦ and 2M are possible. Sometimes a pair plays the latter and "luckily" guess the meaning of a non-systemic 2NT response, naturally without giving any indication of the local standards. We should be careful of saying things like "partner has no clue" though. That is looking at it very much from an Anglo-American perspective. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lycier Posted July 1, 2015 Report Share Posted July 1, 2015 Does not exist. I think in very old fashioned Stayman it showed both majors, but no longer exists as part of the convention. If a pickup on BBO did it I would definitely assume they have no major and that I can not reliably determine their strength. It really exist in the life,in China,even some professional players had played this convention in the CC before 2007,its name is Bell Convention :1nt - 2♣2nt2nt= I have a 5-card major suit,ask responder to relay to 3♣ if interested in major game,actually here 3♣ is equal to puppet stayman.Now 2nt had been eliminated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barmar Posted July 1, 2015 Report Share Posted July 1, 2015 Some people I know play it as a maximum with a five card major.If I want to show that, I jump to 3 of the major. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helene_t Posted July 1, 2015 Report Share Posted July 1, 2015 One advantage of playing it as a minimum with 4-4 majors is that it allows you to play nonpromisory while at the same time having 1NT-2♣2♥-2♠*show an invitational hand with 5+ spades. It loses when responder has a weak hand with moth majors but in that case we often have a double fit, maybe even a 9-card fit, and the fact that opps didn't do anything (for example doubling 2♣) makes this less likely than a priori anyway. It also loses when we find a heart fit and at the same time tell opps whether opener has spades or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.