Hearthstone

[Antrax]

I saw clee on r/CompetitiveHS which is usually a sign he's into it.

It's kind of funny though, because for me the main attraction is that you can pick up and play it for 20-30 minutes, but I have some friends who've liked sold their soul to it, taking it out and playing whenever possible, including in company and during work.

[Zelandakh]

I was logging in and doing my dailies with whichever hero allowed me to do 2 or 3 at the same time for a while but have not played for a few weeks now. I find HS lacks a certain complexity to hold interest and certainly would not spend any money on it. You can make a basic fast mage deck that will take you to Rank 10 or so just from regular cards and if you were lucky enough to get the correct unique from a pack along the way would not be far from reaching the top levels.

[Antrax]

That was my attitude at first too, but I now believe playing control in HS is actually harder than in mtg. HS doesn't have tutors and doesn't have counterspells, so it's often a matter of making the best use of your situational answers as well as preemptively negating whatever burst you suspect your opponent can muster on their turn, and that's harder than mtg where you often have "blanket" answers.

 

But yeah, if you're looking for skill than Bridge is probably better :) HS is more like Hold'em, has this blend of skill and variance that lets everyone feel they have a chance (which also means it's very difficult to have a game locked down completely)

[WesleyC]

I'll play basic mage vs Zel at $1/point :)

[Cyberyeti]

That was my attitude at first too, but I now believe playing control in HS is actually harder than in mtg. HS doesn't have tutors and doesn't have counterspells, so it's often a matter of making the best use of your situational answers as well as preemptively negating whatever burst you suspect your opponent can muster on their turn, and that's harder than mtg where you often have "blanket" answers.

 

But yeah, if you're looking for skill than Bridge is probably better :) HS is more like Hold'em, has this blend of skill and variance that lets everyone feel they have a chance (which also means it's very difficult to have a game locked down completely)

 

I've almost given up trying to play it seriously, if I want to do this I play face hunter which is a deck that only contains one card that is in any way uncommon and I so far am winning by far the majority of my games with it, but playing my shaman deck and winning by getting 4 or 5 11/11s out at the same time gives me far more pleasure.

 

By and large control decks require more difficult to acquire cards than some of the other types.

[Antrax]

Yeah, control usually requires multiple legendaries. That being said, Shaman is one of the classes in the worst shape now (unless you want to play Mech Shaman, which requires 3 epics). There are some good, cheap options to play, most notably the #1 deck right now, Patron Warrior. Other strong decks are oil rogue (typically only requires 2x preparation), tempo mage (you don't have to run a big finisher) and Zoo (classic variant since demon requires Malganis if not Jaraxus). Neither of these plays like face hunter, which probably doesn't fit your play style.

 

I played the game non-seriously (mostly Arena and silly constructed decks like Crusher Shaman or Mill Rogue) for almost a year and now I started laddering seriously, but back then you got a classic pack from arena so it built my collection steadily. If I were to start today it may have been more daunting - but they did add the "watch and learn" quest, and most likely at some point they'll let you choose your arena reward.

[billw55]

Er, I am not a CCG enthusiast. What does "playing control" mean?

[Zelandakh]

Er, I am not a CCG enthusiast. What does "playing control" mean?

In CCGs there are fast decks that try to beat the opponent down before they can organise defences; decks that try to stall the opponent to get a particular combination of cards in hand that will lead to victory; and decks that prevent the opponent from carrying out their chosen plans while (usually slowly) building to a position of overwhelming advantage. There are some variations but this is a simple model. The last of these would be the control decks.

[Cyberyeti]

In CCGs there are fast decks that try to beat the opponent down before they can organise defences; decks that try to stall the opponent to get a particular combination of cards in hand that will lead to victory; and decks that prevent the opponent from carrying out their chosen plans while (usually slowly) building to a position of overwhelming advantage. There are some variations but this is a simple model. The last of these would be the control decks.

 

Where do tempo decks fit into that definition ? Your third definition covers both tempo and control in different ways IMO.

 

Tempo: try to trade cards more than one of theirs for each one of yours and eke out an ever growing advantage

Control: try to survive the early turns by thwarting the opp's plans till you can bang down all your big late game cards

[Zelandakh]

I did not mention tempo decks because the way a player gets card advantage and the significance of that vary greatly from game to game and I felt it would confuse matters. There are also control-combo decks, decks that start off with a low, fast mana curve but switch over to a control condition later on and plenty more. As I wrote, it is a simplified model designed as an aid to someone new to CCGs.

[Antrax]

The prototypical control deck in HS is Control Warrior. This is a deck which revolves around getting armor (countering the plans of fast, aggressive decks), removing key minions with weapons and efficient removal spells (disrupting the plans of decks that revolve more on valuable minions) and ultimately knocking the opponent down to 15 using the ability of Alextraza and then finishing them off with the 12 damage combo from Grommash + Cruel Taskmaster. That's a bit of a crude description as it makes the deck sound like Freeze Mage (when in fact it does play non-garbage minions and attempt to keep board control) but the idea is the deck's win strategy is prolonging the game and playing very high impact cards - which is why the deck is so expensive, relying on multiple legendaries.

[Cyberyeti]

The prototypical control deck in HS is Control Warrior. This is a deck which revolves around getting armor (countering the plans of fast, aggressive decks), removing key minions with weapons and efficient removal spells (disrupting the plans of decks that revolve more on valuable minions) and ultimately knocking the opponent down to 15 using the ability of Alextraza and then finishing them off with the 12 damage combo from Grommash + Cruel Taskmaster. That's a bit of a crude description as it makes the deck sound like Freeze Mage (when in fact it does play non-garbage minions and attempt to keep board control) but the idea is the deck's win strategy is prolonging the game and playing very high impact cards - which is why the deck is so expensive, relying on multiple legendaries.

 

Handlock also.

 

Play as few cards as possible and use your hero power to build your hand size while not dying.

 

Play huge creatures that start with a huge cost but that cost drops as you lose health or gain hand size, give them taunt so you're safe and unleash them on your opponent.

[Zelandakh]

Handlock also.

I would consider the prototypical control decks to be pure counter (often but not always combined with a single self-protecting creature); mana denial; tap out; mill; and stall-draw but again there is a huge variety and it depends a lot on the mechanics of the game being played. That most of these are not available in HS is an indication of its lack of complexity. My favourite control deck was one that used a large amount of damage redirection plus a mill win condition. I also loved the Opalescence deck (Urza's) although I was always missing a few cards to make the full version of it.

[Fluffy]

The prototypical control deck in HS is Control Warrior. This is a deck which revolves around getting armor (countering the plans of fast, aggressive decks), removing key minions with weapons and efficient removal spells (disrupting the plans of decks that revolve more on valuable minions) and ultimately knocking the opponent down to 15 using the ability of Alextraza and then finishing them off with the 12 damage combo from Grommash + Cruel Taskmaster. That's a bit of a crude description as it makes the deck sound like Freeze Mage (when in fact it does play non-garbage minions and attempt to keep board control) but the idea is the deck's win strategy is prolonging the game and playing very high impact cards - which is why the deck is so expensive, relying on multiple legendaries.

 

I got my best rank with control warrior, I have most legendaries that are worth something.

[Cyberyeti]

I got my best rank with control warrior, I have most legendaries that are worth something.

 

I don't have the cards for wallet warrior.

[billw55]

I got it to work! Going to blizzard's site and following the download link there did the trick. I don't see why that would be any different, but it was.

 

Played the tutorial and a couple solo games with the mage. About here I got the feeling that the default deck stunk, so I made my own which seemed much better. Still a raw beginner of course, but this seems like fun.

[Cyberyeti]

I got it to work! Going to blizzard's site and following the download link there did the trick. I don't see why that would be any different, but it was.

 

Played the tutorial and a couple solo games with the mage. About here I got the feeling that the default deck stunk, so I made my own which seemed much better. Still a raw beginner of course, but this seems like fun.

 

Be prepared to lose a lot at the start. Be aware of how the matchmaking works:

 

Ranked - you will play people approximately the same rank

Casual - is based on your win/loss ratio, so at the start you'll play people with a 50/50 win/loss who will have better cards than you

 

Remember these "matchmaking ranks" apply to all your decks, so if you win 20 games with your good mage deck, then switch to a worse deck from another class, you will get pummelled (this happened to me and was incredibly frustrating).

[Antrax]

Yeah, one of the main issues with HS today is that it's so unwelcoming to new players. You have a small comfort bubble between ranks 25 to 20 because people can't drop down to these ranks once they go over them, so it's mostly new players with occasional returning players or someone who just opened a new account.

 

Once you get to rank 20 though, the game becomes really hard, especially early in the month. Every month, everyone's rank resets so top players and noobs inhabit the same ranks more or less, and have to claw each other to climb to the top. It's not so bad now but when August starts, steer clear.

 

Moreover, some people want to get 500 wins with a certain hero because it gives you an animated hero portrait, so to do this as fast as possible they do "farming" - repeatedly concede to keep themselves at a low rank, then beating up on people in that rank. So, you can expect to meet these wonderful, sporting players, most likely playing decks you cannot beat at your current skill level and card pool.

 

But we have casual, right? Except HS casual is anything but. In general, casual is actually harder than ranked, due to the issue Cyberyeti mentioned. Match-making is based on win % and not experience, rank or card pool size, and most people play casual to complete their daily quests, so they choose fast decks which are notoriously less fun to play against.

 

Arena has no skill-based match-making, it just pits you against someone with a similar amount of wins. Moreover, data mining shows that right now it's very difficult to succeed there.

 

So, should you give up and only play the AI? heck no. Every Wednesday there's a "Tavern Brawl" mode which is very casual. I'm not sure how match-making works there, but the three brawls we had so far were rather fast formats (so you get gold pretty quickly), they put players on equal footing (well... more or less) and most importantly, players seem to play them for fun (there are always try-hards, but in general they win once then stop playing). You get a pack for winning once during the four days a week it's available, and after that it'll be a good way to see all sorts of cards and learn the game a bit.

I would also suggest you get some friends. You can play with them, and you can watch them when you inevitably get the "Watch and Learn" quest, which gives you a free pack for watching a friend winning.

 

If you want me to add you, let me know. If you want some links for competitive decks for new players, likewise. Good cards are important, but strong players can carry all-basic decks very far. Good luck!

[Cyberyeti]

 

So, should you give up and only play the AI? heck no.

 

Games against the AI don't count for most of the daily quests, which is a more overpowering reason not to do that unless you simply want to unlock some basic cards by ranking up a hero.

 

Tavern brawl is only available Weds-Sun but is good, and some of the formats you play a fixed deck so your lack of cards won't hurt.

[Zelandakh]

Yeah, one of the main issues with HS today is that it's so unwelcoming to new players. You have a small comfort bubble between ranks 25 to 20 because people can't drop down to these ranks once they go over them, so it's mostly new players with occasional returning players or someone who just opened a new account.

I think you are overdoing this description a little. Any half-decent player should reach rank 20 with a starter deck and 15 with a couple of common/uncommon upgrades that will come along automatically from doing dailies. Yes Casual is tough but Ranked is just fine once you realize that your "Fast" deck is less about doing damage before they can set up defences and more about forcing them into unfavourable trades to secure some level of card advantage. Because this is the key to HS - get card advantage and you win. Once you realize this everything becomes simple.

[StevenG]

Because this is the key to HS - get card advantage and you win. Once you realize this everything becomes simple.

How do you get card advantage when they get dealt in the wrong order? Whenever my starting cards are all 4,5,6 I invariably lose (and it mostly seems to swap big cards for big cards at the start).

If they come out sensibly I win more than my share against similar standard decks.

 

(I started playing a week ago as a response to this thread. I've never played any game of this type before.)

[Zelandakh]

How do you get card advantage when they get dealt in the wrong order? Whenever my starting cards are all 4,5,6 I invariably lose

This is possible of course but the mana curve of a starter deck should be such that the chances of drawing 4-5-6 and mulliganing into another 4-5-6 draw are very low. Most likely you have simply created your deck with too steep of a mana curve. Remove a few of those large creatures and replace them with 2 or 3 drops. In a starter deck it is important to try to establish board control early as this is likely to be the only mechanism your deck has to trade favourably. Only decks with better cards can afford to completely ignore the early game and seize the board later.

[Antrax]

How do you get card advantage when they get dealt in the wrong order? Whenever my starting cards are all 4,5,6 I invariably lose (and it mostly seems to swap big cards for big cards at the start).

As you can imagine, this is about deck building. For instance, in the Arena it's recommended (especially for newer players) to have between 6 to 8 2 drops (cards you'd want to play by turn 2, so 1-drops count but something like novice engineer, which is a very weak turn 2 play, doesn't).

 

In constructed, depending on their strategy, decks don't necessarily follow this rule. However, good beginner decks do, since they're basically good arena decks.

 

I think you are overdoing this description a little. Any half-decent player should reach rank 20 with a starter deck and 15 with a couple of common/uncommon upgrades that will come along automatically from doing dailies.

What I write is based on the experiences people share on Reddit, as well as my own experiment playing on the US server (since I'm usually on EU). Rank 25-20 were all clearly new players. Then, it was mech mages (which was the go-to "win easy" deck at the time) with no compromises regarding cards (so, they had at least Antonidas) with occasional Wallet Warriors (clearly farming for golden portrait, sporting their 6 legendary + multiple epics decks). Those two decks were extremely difficult to beat with a basic-only deck, even at my skill level, which is probably above half decent.

So, a new player, which should not be very good at game and has access to a limited collection, will find it very difficult to win, which often means they'll quit in frustration soon after bursting the rank 20 bubble.

 

Also, thinking a CCG is all about card advantage is a natural step in the evolution of a player, but it's not really true. Try playing a very tempo-oriented deck (oil rogue or tempo mage come to mind) and you'll see the principle you cited doesn't hold.

[Zelandakh]

Also, thinking a CCG is all about card advantage is a natural step in the evolution of a player, but it's not really true. Try playing a very tempo-oriented deck (oil rogue or tempo mage come to mind) and you'll see the principle you cited doesn't hold.

This was quite disrespectful, don't you think? I have been playing CCGs for nearly 20 years, albeit not seriously. When I say HS is all about card advantage it is comparing it to its rivals. Naturally there are specific decks that work around it but for a starting player this is absolutely the best advice (by the time you are in a position to play in a different style you should understand the game well enough to work out the exceptions). In the same way as I would advise an MMDoC player not to worry much about card advantage and to concentrate more on the state of the board and positioning (because drawing is devalued in MMDoC). MtG is the most difficult - I would suggest a new player start with a Sligh deck to learn about tempo and to get a feel for threat removal versus face damage but I find it much more difficult to give a simple direction there...and that is reflected in the complexity of the game.

[Cyberyeti]

In fact one of the common decks atm is not about tempo at all in the standard way, face hunter is just play creatures but not too many, don't trade unless you have to even advantageous trades most of the time and hit face.