diana_eva Posted June 28, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 28, 2015 WTP here? Your PD got overexcited with a near and flattish min and Kxxx opposite your stiff and you showed an extra key card in response to 4NT. Save your marriage....LOL :rolleyes: ..best way to save it is to open another bottle of wine and forget about it. We did just that obv, I wasn't all that serious. But the root of all evil was this misunderstanding where after 3♣ and 3♠ he was already convinced I've got some monster hand exploring slam. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilkaz Posted June 28, 2015 Report Share Posted June 28, 2015 We did just that obv, I wasn't all that serious. But the root of all evil was this misunderstanding where after 3♣ and 3♠ he was already convinced I've got some monster hand exploring slam.To me your 3♠ cue is just cooperating with his 3♦ cue since he could have a monster hand and need your ♠ control for slam. Others might play that you don't cue bid 3♠ with such a minimum and just try to sign off in 4♥ (comments please from those who play "standard" responses to J2NT). But here's where serious or semi serious or just a punt 3NT comes into play. You've shown a 9 card major fit and a club stiff and cue bid controls in pointed suits. It is extremely unlikely that 3NT is the best contract. Your PD doesn't have a really good hand after your 3♣ and if he announces any slam interest with 3NT you will sign off happily in 4♥ and end of problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mbodell Posted June 28, 2015 Report Share Posted June 28, 2015 To me your 3♠ cue is just cooperating with his 3♦ cue since he could have a monster hand and need your ♠ control for slam. Others might play that you don't cue bid 3♠ with such a minimum and just try to sign off in 4♥ (comments please from those who play "standard" responses to J2NT). But here's where serious or semi serious or just a punt 3NT comes into play. You've shown a 9 card major fit and a club stiff and cue bid controls in pointed suits. It is extremely unlikely that 3NT is the best contract. Your PD doesn't have a really good hand after your 3♣ and if he announces any slam interest with 3NT you will sign off happily in 4♥ and end of problem. Agreed. The 4nt is ill considered. No reason to steal a full level of bidding by opener when they can cue their spades, so 3♠ doesn't show extras to me. If partner bids 3nt and hears 4♥ they know they have a club loser, a diamond finesse for a loser, and might still have a loser in hearts or spades or on a really bad day both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gszes Posted June 28, 2015 Report Share Posted June 28, 2015 3n over 3s It is totally unreasonable to expect 3n to be the right strain so it has a vastly superior use in the form of serious/non-serious. The decision of how to interpret is also important. When partner's hand is UNlimited it becomes non serious and the opposite when p has limited their hand. This means the partnership can cue bid up to 3n w/o either showing extras. On this hand over 3s responder should simply have bid 3n (non serious since opener's hand is unlimited). Opener has nothing extra (and some would say they have already promised too much hehe) and opener bids a happy 4h and another marriage is saved:!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Note that it would be wrong for responder to jump to 4h and waste bidding space when it is so easy to cue bid and then try to put on the brakes later with 3n if feasible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alok c Posted June 29, 2015 Report Share Posted June 29, 2015 Imo, 3C or any other bid apart from sign off in 4H is not apt for such minimum & control poor hand.Partner will get encouraged unnecessarily & will be very difficult to put a brake later on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helene_t Posted June 29, 2015 Report Share Posted June 29, 2015 What about agreeing that openers next bid is:-3nt with an intermediate hand- bid game with a minimum- a cuebid with a max This is consistent with the initial rebid and also with non serious 3nt so should be easy to remember. I am not saying this is anywhere near optimal but you need some way to resolve openers strength and this is a simple way of doing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lycier Posted June 30, 2015 Report Share Posted June 30, 2015 but you need some way to resolve openers strength and this is a simple way of doing it. Not only opener but also you need some way to resolve responder's strength.In fact,the biggest problem is 4M to show minmum,you lose all the bidding room if responder is strong. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilKing Posted June 30, 2015 Report Share Posted June 30, 2015 Not only opener but also you need some way to resolve responder's strength.In fact,the biggest problem is 4M to show minmum,you lose all the bidding room if responder is strong. This. When you are in a game force and one play has "defined" their shape (via 3♣ in this case), we are in a classic serious/non-serious position. You can use step 1 as non-serious here and higher bids as serious (or vice versa if you want). So partner can jump to game with a horrible club holding, bid 3♦ with a decent hand that need you to hold at least a few extras, and cue to say slam is likely. In this sequence you can make it slightly fancier and say that new suits above 3♦ are shortage, 3M is extras no shortage and 3NT is a singleton in non-serious suit (diamonds). Once you get used to the rhythm of this method it can be transported to many other situations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zelandakh Posted June 30, 2015 Report Share Posted June 30, 2015 3♣ ought to be unanimous in the OP poll - think that is obvious. There are many alternatives for rebids, some of which are really designed for 2NT being limit+. My own idea is for 3♣ and 3♦ to show an unknown shortage, one with and the other without extras, and then 3♥ and 3♠ can show different ranges without a shortage. It is no more complicated than regular Jacoby and (imho) slightly more effective. For a more complex scheme you can search for some of fred's old posts, although they use the variation of 1♥ - 2♠ and 1♠ - 3♣ being the GF raise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtK78 Posted June 30, 2015 Report Share Posted June 30, 2015 I am late to the thread, but I don't see the problem here. The opening bid is clear. This is a full opening bid in 1950's style Goren Standard American - 11 HCP plus 2 for the singleton = 13 points. Everyone and his grandmother would open the bidding on these cards. Quite frankly, this is not even a bad minimum opening hand. You have lots of spots in your long suits. I would not be the least bit defensive about opening this hand. Playing standard Jacoby 2NT, opener is requested to show a singleton if opener has one. Opener has a singleton club. So opener bids 3♣. I can't believe I used 24 words to spell out anything so obvious. After that, both opener and responder are supposed to use reasonable judgment to determine if this is a game or slam hand. From what I have seen above, this may be the root of the problem. It certainly is not either of opener's first two actions (assuming that opener's second action was 3♣). Now, whether standard Jacoby 2NT is a good game and slam bidding tool is certainly open to debate. But that is not the issue here. The pair had certain agreements and they should follow them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billw55 Posted June 30, 2015 Report Share Posted June 30, 2015 Agree with Art. 1♥ is obvious and 3♣ is mandatory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmnka447 Posted June 30, 2015 Report Share Posted June 30, 2015 I also agree with Art. I don't see a problem with the auction through the 3 ♠ bid. But at that point, neither partner knows exactly how much the other holds. Either opener or responder could still have anywhere from a minimum to a moose from their partner's viewpoint. The bidding through 3 ♠ has been cooperative bidding of values held in case partner has a hand to continue moving toward slam. However, I think that after 3 ♠, responder should simply bid 4 ♥. If opener has a hand with extras that merits continued slam exploration, let opener drive the auction. Opener's 3 ♣ bid has somewhat reduced the value of responder's hand. ♣ Kxxx is of questionable value opposite a stiff or void unless partner holds the stiff ♣ A. Also, after 3 ♠, responder doesn't have anything else to cue below 4 ♥. (Since opener has announced at least a 2nd round ♣ control with the shortness bid, it would seem like a 4 ♣ cue must show the ♣ A.) 4 ♥ by responder sends the right message to opener. It says "Partner, I have enough to drive to game with 4 trump and a ♦ control, but don't have enough to continue slam exploration unless you have a big hand." Here, of course, opener with feather weight values, will pass 4 ♥. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lycier Posted June 30, 2015 Report Share Posted June 30, 2015 This. When you are in a game force and one play has "defined" their shape (via 3♣ in this case), we are in a classic serious/non-serious position. You can use step 1 as non-serious here and higher bids as serious (or vice versa if you want). So partner can jump to game with a horrible club holding, bid 3♦ with a decent hand that need you to hold at least a few extras, and cue to say slam is likely. In this sequence you can make it slightly fancier and say that new suits above 3♦ are shortage, 3M is extras no shortage and 3NT is a singleton in non-serious suit (diamonds). Once you get used to the rhythm of this method it can be transported to many other situations.Of course,I know this.However you have to consider some problems,for example,how to use Jacoby 2nt for responder? -how many points? with extra values or no? balanced or unbalanced? even how to show differences between singleton and void? etcetc,this is not a simple thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilKing Posted June 30, 2015 Report Share Posted June 30, 2015 Of course,I know this.However you have to consider some problems,for example,how to use Jacoby 2nt for responder? -how many points? with extra values or no? banced or unbalanced? even how to show differences between singleton and void? etcetc,this is not a simple thing. I was agreeing with you. :) Anyway, I have reluctantly come to the conclusion that solving range and differentiating between singletons and voids is just too difficult - not systemically, but in practice it just increased the chances of partner making a fatal error and/or using up so much extra time remembering the responses that we get in to time trouble yet again. So I just use continuations that can be used in multiple sequences. Voids can still be diagnosed sometimes via cue-bidding or making a step 5-6 answer to RKCB. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kuhchung Posted June 30, 2015 Report Share Posted June 30, 2015 Did we save your marriage, Diana? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diana_eva Posted June 30, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 30, 2015 Did we save your marriage, Diana? You were supposed to say "Pass, you stupid ***" But it worked out OK in the end :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zelandakh Posted July 1, 2015 Report Share Posted July 1, 2015 Anyway, I have reluctantly come to the conclusion that solving range and differentiating between singletons and voids is just too difficult - not systemically, but in practice it just increased the chances of partner making a fatal error and/or using up so much extra time remembering the responses that we get in to time trouble yet again. So I just use continuations that can be used in multiple sequences.Not sure I agree with this PK. A logical extension of the scheme I mentioned earlier is to use the first step after a relay to show a void and subsequent steps for singletons. That also happens to match one way of handling splinters so you can take the same logic with you to other sequences. So 1♥ - 2NT==3♣ = min + shortage... - 3♦ = relay... - ... - 3♥ = void (3♠ asks)... - ... - 3♠ = sgl spade... - ... - 3NT = sgl diamond... - ... - 4♣= sgl club + spade cue... - ... - 4♦= sgl club + diamond cue3♦ = extras + shortage... - 3♥ = relay... - ... - 3♠ = void (3NT asks)... - ... - 3NT = sgl spade... - ... - 4♣= sgl club... - ... - 4♦ = sgl diamond + club cue (or use your usual splinter logic for the additional piece of information (Last Train or whatever)... - ... - 4♥= sgl diamond - club cue3♥ = min without shortage... - 3♠ = Frivolous3♠ = extras without shortage... - 3NT = spade cue Most would want to reverse the min/extras steps to give extra space on hands in the slam zone. Similarly for using the first step as any singleton and higher steps for specific voids. Within the context of playing 1♥ - 3♠ as a void splinter (any suit) and 3NT/4m as singleton splinters, the above makes perfect sense. And it is really not at all difficult to remember. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilKing Posted July 1, 2015 Report Share Posted July 1, 2015 Not sure I agree with this PK. I have the scars to prove it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lycier Posted July 1, 2015 Report Share Posted July 1, 2015 Anyway,how to define 2nt is an important part of Jacoby 2nt.Assume responder only with minimum hand be as a captain and ask the feature of opener with unlimited strength,it is rediculous for what responder get conclusion in many situations.If responder can't promise extra values,disaster is easy to happen,whatever you have some agreement on the following-up auctions.Save my marriage = Save my partnership,thanks to diana for providing us such good topic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diana_eva Posted July 1, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 1, 2015 ...Save my marriage = Save my partnership,thanks to diana for providing us such good topic. You are welcome. 14 years of marriage today and counting :) Partnerships is safe, Jacoby cannot defeat us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kuhchung Posted July 2, 2015 Report Share Posted July 2, 2015 Ah, but what about Fishbein!? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diana_eva Posted July 2, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 2, 2015 Ah, but what about Fishbein!? Serious 3NT might do the trick which is why I'm reluctant to propose it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kuhchung Posted July 2, 2015 Report Share Posted July 2, 2015 "I seriously wanted to play 3NT" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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