Out of Order?

[Adam1105]

[hv=pc=n&n=st97543htdaq3cqj3&d=w&v=b&b=4&a=1d2s]133|200[/hv]

 

I liked my 2S bid as opener's LHO. Opener told me it was "out of order." I admit my spades weren't THAT great, but I liked it as a defensive bid and if my p can find a fit, who knows. Was I, playing sayc, making an inappropriate bid?

[dave251164]

You would usually expect to have a 6 card suit and 5-10 hcp, which you have albeit in soft values (Qs, J's) and not in your trump suit. It's meant as a disruptive bid and you tend to find that you get the most "out of order" type comments when it has successfully worked and kept the opponents out of their optimum contract, which could be game or even a slam. Opponents have no right to make such comments -if they have a problem with your bids they should just call the Director - and they are often made out of disgruntlement that you stopped them bidding their hands to best effect or even just because they wouldn't have made the bid in their so called style/methods/agreements. Either call the Director to deal with THEIR inappropriate comments or if they were really nasty about it, you could always respond with something like "It may or may not have been out of order, but it was clearly VERY effective!" That way you win the psychological war and they'll be so annoyed that they'll probably screw up the next board/s, gifting you top/s too!

[gwnn]

It's not an illegal bid but you're doing your results a disservice by making it. I guess this time it worked but your opp instead of going all Phil Hellmuth should have just silently rubbed his palms, waiting for the Day of Reckoning.

 

Edit: I'd bid 1S instead.

[cherdano]

I wouldn't bid 2♠, but it's closer to being the correct call than to being "Out of order".

[gwnn]

I wouldn't bid 2♠, but it's closer to being the correct call than to being "Out of order".

I think it's about 70% out of order and 30% the correct call, but YMM obviously V. I definitely think it's 100% out of order to say it's out of order at the bridge table.

[blackshoe]

Personally, if an opponent simply commented "that bid is out of order", I'd just ignore him. If he took it further, then I'd call the director. I would not respond in kind, however nasty he gets. Two wrongs don't make a right. I know this because the ACBL's Zero Tolerance policy says so. B-)

[gordontd]

Personally, if an opponent simply commented "that bid is out of order", I'd just ignore him.

"No, it came immediately after the one on my right".

[nige1]

[hv=pc=n&n=st97543htdaq3cqj3&d=w&v=b&b=4&a=1d2s]133|200|

I liked my 2S bid as opener's LHO.

Opener told me it was "out of order."

I admit my spades weren't THAT great,

but I liked it as a defensive

and if my p can find a fit, who knows.

Was I, playing sayc, making an inappropriate bid? [/hv]

IMO 1♠ = 10. Pass = 9. 2♠ = 8. All close and It depends on your agreements but for most partnerships, a two-bid, in second seat, at amber, shows a better suit. If you do overcall 2♠, Zia might approve when opponents declare and misguess the plain suits.

[gwnn]

http://blog.zacscy.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/PacinoOutOfOrder.jpg

 

(someone had to do it)

[gszes]

I think it's about 70% out of order and 30% the correct call, but YMM obviously V. I definitely think it's 100% out of order to say it's out of order at the bridge table.

 

YMM obviously V sorry but I cannot figure that out, can you please clarify?

[gszes]

Sour grapes is quite common unfortunately. No one likes being "fixed" and it is mainly because no one like bad luck and you just happened to be at "their" table when you chose to bid 2s. Do not be concerned with these rants BUT any time you hear a comment like that it may be best to ask? Should we call the director in case you were injured? Normally that will not only shut up the "bullies" but will earn you a reputation as one that wants to play fair:)

[ArtK78]

YMM obviously V sorry but I cannot figure that out, can you please clarify?

Your mileage may (obviously) vary.

 

In other words, you may have different results. Putting the "obviously" in the middle of YMMV is an interesting touch.

 

 

 

[wank]

2s is a horrible bid, but you can bid whatever you like. if you bid 2s and got a good result, you're lucky but you've done nothing wrong.

[PhantomSac]

Way out of order, you need a TIME OUT!

[Adam1105]

The bid did in fact keep our opps out of a make-able 3NT contract. And we made some points on the scorecard consequently. Though I'm, based on the responses, still not sure my bid was proper. I try always to play properly at the bridge table so I'll try to have "at least one honor" from now on in my six card suit. I kinda think the suggestion that a "1S bid was better" was the right bid.

[neilkaz]

Way out of order, you need a TIME OUT!

Yes, sit in the corner and be happy your parents don't believe in spanking.

[Vampyr]

The bid did in fact keep our opps out of a make-able 3NT contract. And we made some points on the scorecard consequently. Though I'm, based on the responses, still not sure my bid was proper. I try always to play properly at the bridge table so I'll try to have "at least one honor" from now on in my six card suit. I kinda think the suggestion that a "1S bid was better" was the right bid.

Although most people who replied to your question thought your bid was terrible, the only person whose opinion really matters is partner. A "proper" bid is one that conforms to the partnership's agreements.

[wank]

Well that's obviously untrue. You can agree that opening 7nt shows 4333 15 count. Lo and behold you pick up a 4333 15 count. You open 7nt and go for 2300. "Oh no, i'm not an idiot, it was systemic," isn't a good defense.

[MrAce]

Well that's obviously untrue. You can agree that opening 7nt shows 4333 15 count. Lo and behold you pick up a 4333 15 count. You open 7nt and go for 2300. "Oh no, i'm not an idiot, it was systemic," isn't a good defense.

 

http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif

[Trinidad]

Just my $0.02:

 

Pass = 10

2♠ = 9

1♠ = 3

 

Why am I so negative about 1♠? Because I may be forced to bid once more and the only possible rebid I have is in spades. Then I will be showing a six card suit. Partner will notice that I didn't make a weak jump overcall, despite my six card suit. He will conclude that the reason for that is that I was too strong for a weak jump and will play me for an opening hand.

 

So, if I have to choose between telling my partner that I have six spades and a weak hand and telling him that I have six spades and an opening, I will pick the weak hand by making a weak jump overcall.

 

Rik

[Vampyr]

Well that's obviously untrue. You can agree that opening 7nt shows 4333 15 count. Lo and behold you pick up a 4333 15 count. You open 7nt and go for 2300. "Oh no, i'm not an idiot, it was systemic," isn't a good defense.

 

You were an idiot when you designed your system, not when you made the bid.

[Finch]

Just my $0.02:

 

Pass = 10

2♠ = 9

1♠ = 3

 

Why am I so negative about 1♠? Because I may be forced to bid once more and the only possible rebid I have is in spades. Then I will be showing a six card suit. Partner will notice that I didn't make a weak jump overcall, despite my six card suit. He will conclude that the reason for that is that I was too strong for a weak jump and will play me for an opening hand.

 

So, if I have to choose between telling my partner that I have six spades and a weak hand and telling him that I have six spades and an opening, I will pick the weak hand by making a weak jump overcall.

 

Rik

 

Well, if you happen to have the agreement with partner that a weak(ish) 6-card spade suit MUST either pass or bid 2S, then yes your logic is correct. But I don't think that agreement is either standard nor even a good one. When I'm vulnerable (which I agree I"m not here) I have hands which overcall 1S because they are not strong enough to bid a weak 2S. Certainly when NV there are hands that have too much outside the suit to make a weak 2S bid and this is one of them.

 

Even when opening at the 1-level / 2-level there is an overlap in HCP between a 1-level opening and a weak 2. Not as much as when overcalling.

[schelet]

Well, in my opinion using such a bid depends on two factors :

a. vulnerability or non-vulnerability

b. your partner

 

Let me explain :

a. if me and my partner are playing non-vuln against vuln, definitely use the overcall bid. Opp opened with 12-15 hcp, I have 9, so I have no idea about the split of the remaining 16-19 hcp. Assuming an even split (let's say 9-9), we have 18 hcp against 22 hcp, but our long colour is spade, which forces the opps to bid either 2 NT or colour at level 3, which again would be normally difficult to make. So either we make 2 spades (= 110) or we record a -1 trick on opss contract (=100) is about the same. If opps have the hcp's and double 2 spades, they would normally make more by bidding and making their own contract compared with the deficit of tricks (even doubled) we might record by playing 2 spades doubled. So the idea is to bid 2 spades, see what follows and eventually let your p decide whether to pass, to bid 3 spades or even 4 spades.

Situation changes if vulnerability is equal (vuln or non-vuln) - please refer to b.

In case of vuln against non-vuln, I would recommend not to use this overcall bid.

b. if you are playing with someone you've just met (on BBO for example), please be reluctant to use such bids (regardless the vulnerability) because it might be misunderstood by your p.

If you are playing with someone familiar and you probably know how one of you normally bid such type of hands, then you could use such bid even if vulnerability is equal.

[1eyedjack]

Wrong forum. Sorry, thought it about time someone said it. We got to page 2.

[Trinidad]

Well, if you happen to have the agreement with partner that a weak(ish) 6-card spade suit MUST either pass or bid 2S, then yes your logic is correct. But I don't think that agreement is either standard nor even a good one. When I'm vulnerable (which I agree I"m not here) I have hands which overcall 1S because they are not strong enough to bid a weak 2S. Certainly when NV there are hands that have too much outside the suit to make a weak 2S bid and this is one of them.

 

Even when opening at the 1-level / 2-level there is an overlap in HCP between a 1-level opening and a weak 2. Not as much as when overcalling.

So, when you are vulnerable, have a six card suit that isn't worth mentioning, and about 8 points, can't you simply conclude that the six card suit isn't worth mentioning, the strength of the hand isn't worth mentioning and simply put a green card on the table?

 

Why would I overcall at the one level with 6 times the 10 in an 8 HCP hand?

It hardly takes any bidding room away.

It suggests the wrong lead when he opponents are declaring. The fact that I have a six card suit (that partner doesn't know of) reduces the probability that partner can raise, so the opponents will be declaring more often (than when I have a decent five card suit).

 

What is the point of overcalling with such a hand?

 

Rik