Range for a 2S raise on 3451

[Phil]

What is the best hand that you would raise to 2S on. Assume 2/1 with down the middle opening style.

[gordontd]

As opener or responder?

[aguahombre]

Our range would be 12-16 HCP. With only 11, we would have opted not to open at all because of the rebid issues; with 17+, we could reverse on our rebid.

 

Yeh, an all-primes 16 we would reverse.

Edited June 21, 2015 by aguahombre

[Finch]

Up to a minimum reverse. So in fact this is more a question of 'how strong do you like to play your reverse' - as others have pointed out before, the minimum reverse for many people in England (say) is a little weaker than in the US. I suppose I would bid 2S on

 

Kxx

AQxx

AQxxx

x

 

and 2H definitely on

 

Kxx

AQxx

AKxxx

x

 

(the first one I might bid 2H on sometimes)

 

A hand came up recently:

 

Axx

AJ109

AJ8xx

x

 

where my partner at the table raised to 2S; my regular partner (who was playing in the event with someone else) said he thought it was worth a reverse. We all agreed that Axx AJxx AJ109x x was a reverse.

[Phil]

Up to a minimum reverse. So in fact this is more a question of 'how strong do you like to play your reverse' - as others have pointed out before, the minimum reverse for many people in England (say) is a little weaker than in the US. I suppose I would bid 2S on

 

Kxx

AQxx

AQxxx

x

 

and 2H definitely on

 

Kxx

AQxx

AKxxx

x

 

(the first one I might bid 2H on sometimes)

 

A hand came up recently:

 

Axx

AJ109

AJ8xx

x

 

where my partner at the table raised to 2S; my regular partner (who was playing in the event with someone else) said he thought it was worth a reverse. We all agreed that Axx AJxx AJ109x x was a reverse.

 

Thanks Frances, this is what I was after.

 

There was a hand yesterday in a JEC match where I had KJT9x 98x Txx xx where the auction started 1♦ - 1♠ - 2[he[ - 2♠ - 3♠ and we were discussing the minimum hand for opener for this auction. I said good 15-16's should be upgrading to the reverse with the know spade fit and he thought 17 (like agua) was fairly hard and fast.

 

He also thought this hand was a 4♠ call, which in my mind makes 3♠ virtually forcing.

[1eyedjack]

I think it is more interesting to consider the strength requirements of a 2S raise with 3-1-5-4 shape, where the requirements of a 3C rebid is stronger than a 2H reverse with 3-4-5-1.

 

Also a 2H raise after 1D-1H with 4-3-5-1.

[aguahombre]

He also thought this hand was a 4♠ call, which in my mind makes 3♠ virtually forcing.

This goes full circle back to the range question in the title.

 

If, after the 2♥ reverse, the 2♠ rebid by responder is forcing and then 3♠ in-turn is forcing --- then we cannot upgrade a 3-4-5-1 to a reverse with less than a really great 16 in primes. We have committed to game every time responder has 5 pieces in the spade suit.

[Phil]

This goes full circle back to the range question in the title.

 

If, after the 2♥ reverse, the 2♠ rebid by responder is forcing and then 3♠ in-turn is forcing --- then we cannot upgrade a 3-4-5-1 to a reverse with less than a really great 16 in primes. We have committed to game every time responder has 5 pieces in the spade suit.

 

You are conflating -1 + 1 = 0 with 0 :P

 

His position was that you don't reverse on 15/16, so 3♠ shows a better hand than what I (and Frances) are suggesting.

[nullve]

Assuming Rule of 20, (14)15-17 NT and a decent AKQJ-normalised hcp count method (not basic Milton Work, which fails miserably on the hand Frances gave), then with 4351 I would

 

* open 1D and raise 1S to 2S with 11-13 hcp

* open 1N with 14-16 hcp*

* open 1D and reverse into 2H over 1S with 17+ hcp

 

The main idea is to keep the 2S range so tight that bidding game shouldn't depend on whether Opener is pointwise max or min. So I'd have at most 13 hcp for my raise to 2S with 3451.

 

*I know the ACBL wouldn't let me to this systemically.