Worth a GF bid?

[diana_eva]

Matchpoints, all white. What's your plan with this hand?

 

[hv=pc=n&s=SHQT962D85CAKJ965&d=n&v=o&a=1SP?]133|200[/hv]

 

You are playing 2/1.

[mikeh]

Call the director, claim a sudden onset of nausea, and leave the table.

 

 

This has to be on of the more difficult choices ever. However, I cannot bring myself to gf, so I bid 1N, fully aware that I am probably going to have another bout of nausea at my second turn.

 

At least it's mps. The notion of holding this hand at imps, vulnerable, is truly ugly.

 

Note that I haven't told you my plan after 1N. Maybe partner will bid 2H. Yeah, right.

[diana_eva]

I got the nausea part right at the table.

[slothy]

I think i will game force. If i (eventually) find p top-heavy in spades then i will just sigh and berate my luck.

 

As Mike suggested 1NT - this, imo, has a problem in that one is never going to be able to pattern out ones hand. Over 2S response 3C may well be passed out with suitable hands and ones heart suit is lost.

 

1S 2C 2S 3H potentially shows my hand shape at this point but maybe i am lying about my high card strength. I certainly dont want to miss out on pin-pointing a good 3 card H suit opposite.

 

Of course if p bids 2D or 2H over 2C there is more room to show ones shape. Over 2H one is happy, over 2D one can bid 2H and then bid 3H and we are still at the 3 level.

 

Difficult hand to bid i agree :(

[aguahombre]

People who say they play 2/1, then bid 2C over 1S with this hand, are not playing 2/1 G.F.

 

After recovering from the initial illness I try a forcing NT, planning to rebid 3C if nothing good happens.

 

There are two camps about how to show 10-12 and a long club suit -- 1) direct 2) delayed through 1NT. We believe the delayed route is better because something good might happen in between. Here, Opener might accidentally rebid 2H.

[fromageGB]

No problem with forcing NT then clubs to play if partner does not bid hearts.

(Even better if you are playing a 15 count Gazzilli method, but not that common.)

It is a problem if you are playing a non-forcing NT.

[WesleyC]

At MPs I'll take my chances with a semi-forcing 1NT.

 

At IMPs I'd force to game.

[Cyberyeti]

Caveat I don't play 2/1.

 

I tend to take the rosy view on these hands and sometimes come unstuck on the huge 2 suited misfits, I think I would GF and at least get my shape over.

[MrAce]

I would never GF with this playing 2/1. I am burned a lot. Once you hear 2♦ over 2♣ you know you are screwed already, it is like a runaway truck after this.

Think about it, pd will open almost all 12 hcp and a lot of 10-11 with 5-5 6-5 hands. When there is misfit of bicolor hands even 26 hcp is not sufficient to bring the tricks needed most of the time. And this is MP. Tbh even at IMPs I probably would not dare it.

[gszes]

I would probably consider this to be GF hand opposite anything but spades and guess what they have spades. Especially true with partnerships that like to open really light. I would go the 1N forcing route (without the need for Mylanta) and hope to get in clubs somewhere unless perchance p bids hearts (roflol). Minors are generally ugleeeeee at MP but salvaging a + score usually keeps things from being too horrible. You realize you are at a disadvantage to all those SAYC bidders so try to not make things worse by overbidding in a precarious situation.

[diana_eva]

Thanks for the replies. I made a 2/1 bid at the table, but I wanted to know if it's clear to upgrade or not. To my defense, we don't open light so I expected a full opener across.

 

 

The auction took a funny turn at the table, which we weren't able to capitalize properly.

 

[hv=pc=n&s=SHQT962D85CAKJ965&w=S84HAJ753DA962C87&n=SAKJ76H84DKQ4CT43&e=SQT9532HKDJT73CQ2&d=n&v=o&a=1SP2C2HPPDP3HP4CP5CPPP]399|300[/hv]

I meant my X as penalty, but partner didn't take it so. (Should X be penalty in that position?) Then to make things perfect I didn't realize why he'd pull so was reluctant to bid 3NT et voila, here's how to score 20%.

[WesleyC]

I meant my X as penalty, but partner didn't take it so. (Should X be penalty in that position?) Then to make things perfect I didn't realize why he'd pull so was reluctant to bid 3NT et voila, here's how to score 20%.

 

My opinion is that although switching to penalty doubles in G/F auctions where both partners have showed a real suit is technically superior, the advantage is small and making the change isn't worth the extra discussion/agreements so I prefer to stick with T/O doubles especially in a pickup partnership.

 

At MPs, if I did guess to start 2C I would forget about the G/F and pass out 2H. You already took a 'position' by bidding 2C, partner is marked with a minimum hand, limited club support and the hand screams misfit so I'd gamble that any positive score for our side will be reasonable score. It's also very likely that the opponents are playing in a 5/0 or 5/1 heart fit with a 5/4 diamond fit on the side!

[diana_eva]

My opinion is that although switching to penalty doubles in G/F auctions where both partners have showed a real suit is technically superior, the advantage is small and making the change isn't worth the extra discussion/agreements so I prefer to stick with T/O doubles especially in a pickup partnership.

 

At MPs, if I did guess to start 2C I would forget about the G/F and pass out 2H. You already took a 'position' by bidding 2C, partner is marked with a minimum hand, limited club support and the hand screams misfit so I'd gamble that any positive score for our side will be reasonable score. It's also very likely that the opponents are playing in a 5/0 or 5/1 heart fit with a 5/4 diamond fit on the side!

 

Thanks, very good points. I got all giggly when opps bid hearts and didn't think it through. Pass would have been great there - it simply didn't cross my mind.

 

This isn't a pickup partnership, it's my most regular partnership actually, so I think it's worth the extra discussion to clear up what's pass, what's X, etc. We agreed that pass means nothing to say while X would be penalty, but I'm not convinced this is ideal. It's easy to remember, so that's a good thing, but normally if opps interfere in our GF sequence they'd be harder to punish for a worthy score, I think.

[aguahombre]

The Double of 2H should be penalty even if you have bid a forcing NT. But, when you are in a game forcing and natural auction, you should be making natural bids. Your double of 2H says you want to defend 2H doubled; and partner with the balanced hand expected when he passed 2H has no reason to remove it. Using your Double in this scenario as takeout is just plain silly. If you had spade support you would bid spades, if you wanted to rebid clubs you would have rebid clubs, and if you had a diamond suit to go with your clubs you would bid diamonds.

 

Furthermore, if opener had hearts and no particular club fit he would have doubled and if he had a 2NT rebid he would have bid 2NT; so, everyone on the planet should know that your side wants to stop off and penalize them. It wasn't just you playing some other method than 2/1; neither was partner.

[phoenix214]

Your partners bidding does not make sense in the case he took your double as take -out. If you are in FG auction, he knows that you should end up in game, so he has nothing to risk to double with his hand(If he thinks your playing TO doubles here), which you then would pass, I assume.

As for the meaning of the double here - usually if you are in FG situation, there should be a forcing pass/penalty double, situation so the double is penalty.

[diana_eva]

Yes we screwed up badly, nothing makes much sense there. I'll toss it up to brain freeze I think and at least we now know we are allowed to punish opps, then use our judgement better to decide whether to continue bidding our suits naturally or double them.

[Cyberyeti]

4♣ is horrible, you should have at least been in 3N.

 

I can't laugh too much, we'd have opened the N hand a weak notrump, and could well play 4♥. Yuk.

[KurtGodel]

Thanks, very good points. I got all giggly when opps bid hearts and didn't think it through. Pass would have been great there - it simply didn't cross my mind.

 

This isn't a pickup partnership, it's my most regular partnership actually, so I think it's worth the extra discussion to clear up what's pass, what's X, etc. We agreed that pass means nothing to say while X would be penalty, but I'm not convinced this is ideal. It's easy to remember, so that's a good thing, but normally if opps interfere in our GF sequence they'd be harder to punish for a worthy score, I think.

 

I thought that most 2/1 partnerships would play double as penalty here, at least my side of the pond. For those reasons you can't really pass out 2♥, partner could have a rock crusher and he might easily just be making a forcing pass and intending to pull a penalty double, to show extra shape. I think on this hand I would probably bid 1NT if that is truly forcing and bid 2♣ if we were playing a semi-forcing NT.

 

When partner bids 3♥, I think we must bid 3NT at any form of scoring/vul. I'm slightly confused, if your partner thought double was takeout, why didn't he make one himself?

[Zelandakh]

I can't laugh too much, we'd have opened the N hand a weak notrump, and could well play 4♥. Yuk.

Why 4♥? Presumably Opener will show 2 hearts and 3 clubs in some way, possibly also 5 spades, and now it seems strange to insist on the weak 5-2 fit.

[Cyberyeti]

Why 4♥? Presumably Opener will show 2 hearts and 3 clubs in some way, possibly also 5 spades, and now it seems strange to insist on the weak 5-2 fit.

 

We don't have a GF transfer to clubs available (our GF with clubs is single suited), so we're not going to be showing more than 4 clubs taking it slowly, TBH I might well just bid 4♥ over 1N to conceal my shape.

[rmnka447]

A forcing 1 NT reply with this hand for me. Don't see enough to make it a game force and am void in partner's suit (i.e. known misfit), so have to downgrade it even more.

[Phil]

I'd start with 1N.

 

This hand may play at the three level or in slam, or somewhere in-between.

[jdonn]

I like 2♣ personally. At least it will let me show my shape. It could get too high but 1NT could get not high enough - imagine partner rebids 2♠ or 2♦ and you bid 3♣, you can easily miss a 5-3 heart fit or 3NT. Even if partner rebids 2♣ over 1NT I have no idea what we should do, and our auction will definitely be a lot worse than if I had started with 2♣.

 

On the auction you had, double is definitely penalty. Silly partner :)

[rhm]

People who say they play 2/1, then bid 2C over 1S with this hand, are not playing 2/1 G.F.

Sorry, but this is utter nonsense.

The question is whether to force to game or not.

Sure if you force to game the deal may be an entire misfit and you will get too high if partner is minimum.

But the opposite is also true.

You could easily be cold for 7♣, e.g. ♠QJxxx ♥AK ♦Ax ♣xxxx or similar. Try to get close after a forcing or semi-forcing 1NT.

Oh I know many can produce wonderful sequences on paper when both hands are in view leading to the best contract, but never in practice at the table.

 

That partner has five spades is to be expected and no real indication yet of a misfit. If he has more spades he is not that likely to be minimum since he could have opened a weak two.

The danger is of course a spade - diamond twosuiter, which is possible, but then he need not be dead minimum.

I consider the risk of getting too high by forcing to game less than the chance of ending at the wrong strain or level by bidding 1NT.

I am pretty sure Kit Woolsey would agree.

 

Rainer Herrmann

[Cyberyeti]

Rainer nails this, that you've forced to game doesn't mean you'll make it, but it seems the best course of action on a hand that seems to make game decent opposite ♥KJx, ♣Q and 9 other cards. If you come across a 5251 12 count opposite then you probably lost the gamble, but I think you win more often than you lose.