ATB - should our system have got us to the good game?

[Jinksy]

This is the same hand from this thread, which I posted as a sanity check, since I haven't been playing much recently and was wondering if the rest of the room had much chance of finding this game:

 

(ETA, in case it wasn't clear before - 1♠'s minimum value is a king stronger than normal - it's unlimited upwards. So in Fantunes terms, on HCP he's a sub-minimum)

 

Poll 1:

 

[hv=pc=n&s=sq2h8653dq852ca63&n=sak743hqt942dk4c9&d=w&v=0&b=8&a=p1s(A%20king%20stronger%20than%20normal%201S%2C%20forcing)p1n(0-9%2C%20semi-forcing)p2hp3hppp]266|200[/hv]

 

So matchpoints. We play a form of Gazz, so with the same shape but slightly more strength/solidarity, N would have rebid 3H (eg on AKJxx KQJTx xx x - it's nominally '16-18' , but, while we're still calibrating, it seems like most 5-5s with most values in the long suits should upgrade frequently).

 

Forgot to alert it in the description, but since we play Gazz, N is also capped at 17 points.

 

Should N or S be more optimistic, or are we just missing game along with the rest of the room?

 

Poll 2:

 

We might also have had a very different auction, if N hadn't upgraded initially:

 

W can open 2N, showing nominally 5+ spades + (5+ hearts or 5+ clubs) and 10-13 points (that is, the same playing strength as a normal Fantunes 2-bid), so again, upgrading into and out of the range is common). If he does so, S bids 3♣: pass or pull-to-3♦, and N with hearts does the latter (perforce, except on highly distributional hands)

 

Should N have opened this, or do you agree with his upgrade? Either way, supposing he did, is S now worth a punt at 4H (given that the opps know relatively little about his hand)?

 

 

On both poll questions, do your decisions change at IMPs?

[ArtK78]

I can't answer the poll question because the hands show North and South, while the poll refers to East and West. However, I will discuss it using North and South as shown in the diagram.

 

North should bid game.

 

This is where I depart from those who state that MLTC is just another form of point count bidding.

 

North has a 12 count plus 5-5 distribution. By MLTC, he has a 5 loser hand, which is a maximum opening 1 bid, even though most would look at his cards and see a minimum opening hand. Clearly, though, he needs for partner to have the right 2 cover cards for game to be reasonable.

 

North opens 1♠, and over the forcing 1NT response, bids 2♥, showing a minimum opening bid with 5-4 or better distribution.

 

Now South, with the ♠Q (one cover card), ♣A (a second cover card) and 4 card heart support shows invitational values by raising to 3♥. This is a close call, as it usually takes 2 1/2 cover cards to justify a game invite. The ♦Q is of questionable value. So this is an aggressive raise..

 

North, hearing South's raise to 3♥, should bid game. North has a 5 loser hand. South's invitation shows 2 1/2 cover cards. Therefore there are 2 1/2 losers, and game should be bid.

 

Note that if either North or South added the ♥J in place of a small heart, game would be a virtual claim, but neither hand is significantly improved.

[aguahombre]

What Art said...and further...to the extent that North should bid 4 even if his 2H was as wide ranging as ours instead of limited to about 15. South's 3H is a courtesy raise opposite the wide range, and is rock minimum opposite the conditions in the OP. Can't be any worse, yet game is good ---so North gets the blame, especially in the OP's system, but also in ours.

[Jinksy]

I can't answer the poll question because the hands show North and South, while the poll refers to East and West. However, I will discuss it using North and South as shown in the diagram.

 

Sorry, fixed.

[Jinksy]

What Art said...and further...to the extent that North should bid 4 even if his 2H was as wide ranging as ours instead of limited to about 15. South's 3H is a courtesy raise opposite the wide range, and is rock minimum opposite the conditions in the OP. Can't be any worse, yet game is good ---so North gets the blame, especially in the OP's system, but also in ours.

 

I guess I didn't make this clear. N has shown a *stronger* hand than usual (well, maybe slightly lower ceiling after failure to Gazzilli, but significantly higher floor) - see OP for clarification.

[PhilKing]

I guess I didn't make this clear. N has shown a *stronger* hand than usual (well, maybe slightly lower ceiling after failure to Gazzilli, but significantly higher floor) - see OP for clarification.

 

What does North do with a minimum 54M hand?

[aguahombre]

I guess I didn't make this clear. N has shown a *stronger* hand than usual (well, maybe slightly lower ceiling after failure to Gazzilli, but significantly higher floor) - see OP for clarification.

You said that the same shape with 16+ would have rebid 3H, not 2H. I surrender.

[Zelandakh]

I am going to be the dissenting voice and say that if anyone was was at fault it was South. South thinks North has 14+hcp and at worst a 5422 shape. So the baseline for North is a hand worth about 16 with a fit. South's hand is borderline to a game call over that whereas North's is just minimum, the missing queen offsetting the extra shape. Notice that giving South ♣KQ instead of the ace makes game terrible and no one is able to differentiate between those 2 hands whatever the evaluation method.

 

Playing a more traditional system such as SA, SEF or Forum D, it would be South that has a maximum and North that has extras. System is important here and it is easy to view things through the prism of familiarity rather than switching mindset to that of a Fantunes bidder. And MLTC has nothing to do with it!

[Jinksy]

What does North do with a minimum 54M hand?

 

I'm not doing this well :(

 

Rebidding 2H showed a minimum(ish) for his initial opening. His initial opening was at least a king stronger than an SAYC 1S bid (Aguahombre sounded ike he thought I meant it was *at most* a K stronger.

[PhilKing]

I'm not doing this well :(

 

Rebidding 2H showed a minimum(ish) for his initial opening. His initial opening was at least a king stronger than an SAYC 1S bid (Aguahombre sounded ike he thought I meant it was *at most* a K stronger.

 

I still don't get what he does with a 54 12 count though. Just curious.

 

My understanding of the Fantunes type methods is that you do not have to hold extras when you hold both majors for a one opening.

 

Anyway, it's potty for North not to go on. It's not just that he has a fifth trump - just think about how much stronger this hand is on the auction so far than if the majors are reversed.

[Jinksy]

In our system he opens 2M (or 1N if (54)22). Fantoni-Nunes (and most, though not all of the other Fantunes versions around) do open them 1M, but we figured life was too short to deal with all the consequences of that, and we haven't noticed any consistent loss from our approach. The 5-5 hands were the really nasty ones, but that's the main reason we have the 2N opening option.

 

Do you think, btw, that if N had opened 2N, S should have put him in 4♥s?

[ArtK78]

 

My understanding of the Fantunes type methods is that you do not have to hold extras when you hold both majors for a one opening.

 

I can't speak for all versions of Fantunes, but I was playing a version of Fantunes for a short time and it is my understanding that all one of a suit openings promise 15+. With 5-4 in the majors and less than 15 HCP, one is supposed to open 2 of the 5 card major (or a weak NT in an extreme case, for example, xxxxx AJxx Ax Kx).

[PhilKing]

I can't speak for all versions of Fantunes, but I was playing a version of Fantunes for a short time and it is my understanding that all one of a suit openings promise 15+. With 5-4 in the majors and less than 15 HCP, one is supposed to open 2 of the 5 card major (or a weak NT in an extreme case, for example, xxxxx AJxx Ax Kx).

 

Well Fantunes don't do it (they open 1M) so it ain't really Fantunes. B-)

[Jinksy]

I read somewhere they opened promising full strength way back when they first developed the system, but switched to the potentially weaker version early on.

[eagles123]

play an easier system!!!

[Jinksy]

I'm not sure the mnemonic issues of playing 1S 1N / 2H showing Hs and Ss is what present the difficulty on this hand...

 

(though this might be a bad time to admit that in the actual auction, P forgot the system, GFed, and then passed us out in 3♥ :P We figured afterwards this was the auction we'd probably have had otherwise)