4S versus 4H

[lmilne]

[hv=pc=n&s=s842h4dk85432ck62&d=w&v=b&b=4&a=1h1s4h]133|200[/hv]

 

What would you do:

 

a) with everyone vulnerable?

 

b) with just your side vulnerable?

 

And why?

[cherdano]

4S. Can be spectacularly wrong, but will work well too often IMO.

[MrAce]

I'd Pass.

 

I got my @$ handed to me so many times when I take action at high level with 3 small trumps and a weak hand. http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/sad.gif So I gave running against the wind.

[wank]

bidding here has always worked out badly for me too.

[alok c]

Pass.

[benlessard]

VS an east that can bid 4H and X me in 4S i would pass. VS Some east that always have 5 trumps for 4H I might bid 4S. VS random players I would pass in a very weak field (4H is not a preempt for them) bid 4S in a weakish field and pass in a medium or better field (too likely its a trap or they fight correctly over my 4S).

[mikeh]

Pass.

 

Wrong trumps for a save, and no reason to think we can make anything higher than, maybe, the 2-level.

 

If you always bid on these hands, the opponents will own you for life.

[helene_t]

4♠. Not convinced about it but I think there is a good chance that it makes, that it is a good sac, or that opps make the wrong decision over it.

[ahydra]

I'll pass - only 3 trumps and our unsupported Ks are not well placed. Partner should protect if he has extras.

 

ahydra

[WesleyC]

I'd lean towards pass, but I think its a pretty close decision.

 

I agree with benlessard that theres definitely some psychology involved and against some opponents I might bid 4H.

[wank]

I'll pass - only 3 trumps and our unsupported Ks are not well placed. Partner should protect if he has extras and the right shape.

 

ahydra

 

FYP. no reason to think partner has a sensible shape to double given we've got a singleton heart.

[Phil]

Pass. Weak trump and outside defense dissuade me from action.

 

There's two bad scenarios that can come from bidding: a) phantom, b) getting killed when they were making versus two positives: a) making game or b) profitable sac. The former seem more likely than the latter however, due to the texture of this hand.

 

Auctions like this are also a reason I'm starting to lean toward IJO's versus precision pairs that love (1M) - (bla) - 4M.

[lycier]

Pass.

However the following auction is north make a double to show some extra values,then I will bid 4♠.

[PhilKing]

I'd pass at any vulnerability. Why?

 

Only 3 bad trumps. Unless we have a big diamond fit, a trump could lead to as much as 5 down.

 

Reasonable defence. If parner is 5224 or similar with some stay honours in the minors, they could easily be going down.

 

But there's no great need to overthink this - as a rule of thumb, we can allow us to be pushed one level higher in competition, and since we only had an average raise to Two Spades, bidding Four in this spot is just wild.

[ralstar]

A) not vulnerable 4♠ is absolutely correct bid. Reasoning: opener has 5+ ♥opponent responded with 4+ ♥ partner has 4+ ♠and you have 3[spades. With opponents with so many hearts they are pretty much guaranteed to make 4♥. Conversely you have chance if partner has 6+ ♠ at making 4♠. Additionally, most likely to be set -2 for -100, while not allowing opponents 4♥for 400 points.

 

B) both vulnerable. 4♠would be a total sacrifice as only a slight chance of making. Also, you can hope opponents try for small slam and set, but still just gambling. With both vulnerable, it comes down to how aggressive you want to play.

 

Me personally, 4♠every time and forget the consequences.

[cherdano]

4S. Can be spectacularly wrong, but will work well too often IMO.

Yeah, I was wrong about this one. It's 800 or 1100 just too often. Kxxxxx is not a great feature on offense with a weak hand!

[jogs]

Would only consider 4♠ at favorable vulnerability.

[case_no_6]

Pass.

1. I have some defense, so we may beat this.

2. Though I do have spade support, it is weak and only 3 cards long.

3. Partner does not have to have a good hand to overcall spades at the 1 level. Even if partner does have good values, we might not be able to make 4S while they are failing at 4H.

4. Partner is not prohibited from bidding again when his/her hand is suitable.

[BruceZhu]

I'd give 4♠ a good bet that it would make. RHO's pre-empt shows that he is weak, and partner rates to have some of the missing points. However, don't upgrade your hand because of the heart singleton; partner is also likely to hold less than 2 hearts. The long diamonds might be an asset. In unfavorable vulnerability, I might bid or pass. P.S. I am an aggressive bidder so I might be wrong.

[sstansmall]

Bid 4s all the time, Pard has around 10-14 pts something like KJT9x,xx,Axx,Qxx at least. but he could have AQJxxx xx, Qx Axx

[mikestar13]

Pass. Weak trump and outside defense dissuade me from action.

 

There's two bad scenarios that can come from bidding: a) phantom, b) getting killed when they were making versus two positives: a) making game or b) profitable sac. The former seem more likely than the latter however, due to the texture of this hand.

 

Auctions like this are also a reason I'm starting to lean toward IJO's versus precision pairs that love (1M) - (bla) - 4M.

 

A good point--the arguments for 4♠ assume SAYC/2 over 1 bidding by the opponents, where the 4♥ is almost certain (barring unskilled opponents). These are reasonable arguments, though I am not persuaded in this particular case--and I might be wrong. Against a Precision pair, where this raise could easily be a flat 13-14 unsuitable for slam, bidding 4♠ is suicide. The quick, uninformative 1M-4M sequences (with or without intervention) are Precision's greatest strength, which I say as someone who has played one variety or another of Precision since the late 70's. IJO's as a countermeasure is a most interesting idea.

[KurtGodel]

At the risk of a torrent of "OMG you have a singleton how can you pass": the clearest pass I have seen for a long time.

You have a fairly average shaped hand for this auction. You have worse spades than you might, you have better defence than you might. How many heart ruffs are you scoring with three trumps anyway?

[lmilne]

These sorts of problems aren't normally won by argument. Both sides will usually take more than words to be convinced. Or am I being too cynical?

 

A side point - perhaps in these sorts of problems a simple way of answering is more valuable. Something along the lines of "bid/pass - feel strongly about this"/"bid/pass - but not clear"/"could go either way"?

 

At the table, bidding 4♠ runs into ♠AKQx on your left. More interestingly, at all vulnerable, 4♠ is still right, going for 500 against 620. A few of the top players in my country (Australia) are bidders - the canon seemed to be pass, however.

 

Thanks everyone for your comments.

[benlessard]

Surpringly missing AKQx is not always that bad for your side, these values often translate into offense even when facing a stiff if responder got long trumps. So they could still make 4H. What im more worried about is missing QJTx or similar holdings where 4S rate to be -2 and 4H will have no play.

 

That why its safer to overcall or preempt with solid intermediate without AK than AKxxx(x).

 

QJT8xx with a side ace is a much better and safer preempt than AKJ7xx and nothing on the side, I know most wont believe this so all i can say is keep a track record of preempting/sac gone wrong and you will see that 85% of the bad results is because of bad intermediates/slow trumps loser.

[Finanzier]

Even if my P overcalls solide if have no clue. So I pass.

Possibly E has 5♠ and lurks for a 4♠ bid. If P passes my pass I think

we can wether make 4!S nor limit enough the downs.

If he doubles 4!H I will pass, because my Kings are good enough for a defeat but by far not good enough for a make in our contract.

Finally, P might have - ok unlikely - 4!H. Even if he has only 3 with my few trumps 4♠ remains bad.

Nonvulable it might pay to bid, but I dont like to throw a coin.

The Foam at the moutht of my P if they make 4!H - we down going only 2 - is by far not so great, as we go down 3 in 4!S in view of E's 4 or 5♠ instead of them letting go down 3

in vies of P´s ♥AJTx.