MrAce Posted June 7, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 7, 2015 Is that analogy germane to current events on BBF? PhilG007 started a topic. Mikeh and Mr Ace replied accusing him of trolling. If you check his replies and think about the only other option other than trolling that he may be writing such replies, then you will realize that accusing him of trolling was the higher ground.http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif Look Nige1, you know I like you and I always did. You are an honest man and you defend your opinions w/o being intimidated by names or fame. I get that. And I personally like it, despite the fact that we disagree now and then. I also like you being polite and respectful to others and expect the same. I also like that you step up and defend those who you think are being gang banged. But on this one I have to tell you that you are being unfair. You talk like it all started because Mike and I called him troll and totally ignored all others who also called him the same. You ignore that it all started by him calling names to people such as "palookas" "fake experts" "Mr Deuce" etc etc and act like we are just trigger happy newcomer bashers. with all due respect, this simply is not the case. You and mods should worry more about the newcomers to game than some attention freak troll. I disagree with them and you that what he is saying is harmless. No novice would want to have anything to do with a topic where people are fundamentally disagreeing with each other, getting into pissing contest. Worst part is that they would not know the difference. Expecting a good result from this type of encounters in N/B forums is as naive as it gets imho. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nige1 Posted June 7, 2015 Report Share Posted June 7, 2015 Not in N/B forums, and definitely not when the owner of eccentric views intentionally harming the newcomers just to piss of other people. Not in the expense of newcomers to the game. Besides, there is a huge difference between eccentric and moronic. How can you diagnose another poster's motives? Even were his views mistaken, how can you know they're intentionally malicious? Such speculation side-tracks rational argument onto time-wasting ego-trips. It's simpler and quicker to present counter-arguments. Relevant experience and cogent argument easily discredit faulty claims 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjbrr Posted June 7, 2015 Report Share Posted June 7, 2015 At times, I wonder whether we only have one primary forum troll who periodically sheds his skin... CayugaGuy ---> Lukewarm ---> 32519 ----> Phil007 . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
masse24 Posted June 7, 2015 Report Share Posted June 7, 2015 f you want a verbal punch up, let's do it in private...I'm more than capable of dealing with your kind, Bud :angry: After reading PhilG's previous posts, filled with masterful bridge analysis, lucid arguments, and peppered with eloquent rebuttals aimed at his detractors, I can't help but chuckle at the memory of the lion he reminds me of. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4trn2lJxl00 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diana_eva Posted June 7, 2015 Report Share Posted June 7, 2015 ...You and mods should worry more about the newcomers to game than some attention freak troll. I disagree with them and you that what he is saying is harmless. No novice would want to have anything to do with a topic where people are fundamentally disagreeing with each other, getting into pissing contest. Worst part is that they would not know the difference. Expecting a good result from this type of encounters in N/B forums is as naive as it gets imho.... There are two separate issues here: 1) Should mods police content in N/B Forums, and filter out bad advice? 2) Are people who give bad advice doing so intentionally to harm novice players? I simply claimed that we don't know that #2 is true. Nige1 says the same thing, how can you know he posts with the intention to harm newbies? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenberg Posted June 7, 2015 Report Share Posted June 7, 2015 I have given this some thought. First, about me: I imagined myself as a beginner. No doubt I would be confused (I once was told I should not lead away fom a King. I thought that meant I should lead the King. It seemed stupid but I tried it. Not twice.) All in all, I prefer not to be protected from bad advice. I could give a zillion reasons for this preference, but no matter, it is my preference. Where this leads: If bbo, through eva or otherwise, decides to ban someone then they should do that because they believe it is in the best interests of bbo to do so. So, for me, it all comes down to pretty much what it always comes down to: I'll watch out for me, eva, as a mod, and others, can watch out for bbo. I actually think that things work better that way. I could argue why, but this is one of the fundamentals of life that I won't be changing my mind about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeh Posted June 7, 2015 Report Share Posted June 7, 2015 There are two separate issues here: 1) Should mods police content in N/B Forums, and filter out bad advice? 2) Are people who give bad advice doing so intentionally to harm novice players? I simply claimed that we don't know that #2 is true. Nige1 says the same thing, how can you know he posts with the intention to harm newbies?You can't, if the test is proof beyond a reasonable doubt. But this is not a court of criminal justice (and in many cultures, the test isn't reasonable doubt anyway). It is a good, useful approach to examine the totality of the evidence and to draw inferences therefrom. If he isn't trolling/being intentionally malicious, then he is, I suggest, a seriously deluded person whose posts, whether intentionally or otherwise do harm to the community. You and others have implored him to read the posts that are critical of his ideas, and I defy you to show a single example of his doing that and making a rational response. People like him take advantage of good-hearted people such as you and nige1. I may be less forgiving in part because in my professional life I have experienced this sort of thing, and I know from those experiences that it can be very, very difficult to accept that someone is not merely innocently. Mistaken or eccentric but in fact an intentional or seriously deluded actor. My personal view is that the weight of the evidence is compelling. However, this is not my forum: I am merely one of the participants and I respect your apparent wish to continue to extend this troll the benefit if the doubt. I ca easily block him. My concern is much as that expressed by Timo: it isn't about me....it is about the forumas a safe, comfortable learning environment. The troll's suggestions aren't about to make my game worse, but they risk hurting those less experienced and looking to learn..after all, if I were a newbie and saw that someone was a recognized BIL mentor, I might think that there was merit I his suggestions, even tho they get criticized by people who aren't mentors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrAce Posted June 7, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 7, 2015 There are two separate issues here: 1) Should mods police content in N/B Forums, and filter out bad advice? 2) Are people who give bad advice doing so intentionally to harm novice players? I simply claimed that we don't know that #2 is true. Nige1 says the same thing, how can you know he posts with the intention to harm newbies? Not me. Ignore what Timo wants if you believe Timo has beef with Phil, which is not the case but still. Listen and read the comments by other members of this community whose posts never or rarely cause problems. Can it be made any more obvious that BBF would be a better place if PhilG007 was banned? And then instead of asking me how to solve these 2 separate issues, which are created by you mods, listen to the suggestion I made which eliminates those issues to begin with. Just make a new sticky that says "only for N/B players and Mods and BBF world class players" End of the story, problem solved! Which rescues you from having to police the content of the posts made by John Doe or Jane Doe and/or whether they are intentional or not. As I said, it is not like you have 50 hits from B/N everyday asking 100 questions. What is it...3 -4 a week ? You do not need everyone to be able to get in there and help. As you see it is being abused, intentional or not. #1 priority to teaching bridge is to make sure the newcomer loves it and a drama queen topics are not gonna help your cause. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diana_eva Posted June 7, 2015 Report Share Posted June 7, 2015 Not me. Ignore what Timo wants if you believe Timo has beef with Phil, which is not the case but still. Listen and read the comments by other members of this community whose posts are never or rarely cause problems. And then instead of asking me how to solve these 2 separate issues, which are created by you mods, listen to the suggestion I made which eliminates those issues to begin with. Just make a new sticky that says "only for N/B players and Mods and BBF world class players" End of the story, problem solved! Which rescues you from having to police the content of the posts made by John Doe or Jane Doe and/or whether they are intentional or not. As I said, it is not like you have 50 hits from B/N everyday asking 100 questions. What is it...3 -4 a week ? You do not need everyone to be able to get in there and help. As you see it is being abused, intentional or not. #1 priority to teaching bridge is to make sure the newcomer loves it and a drama queen topics are not gonna help your cause. So you think N/B Forums advice should be moderated. OK, I get that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrAce Posted June 7, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 7, 2015 So you think N/B Forums advice should be moderated. OK, I get that. I do not understand this comment. Were they not moderated? I thought you and Barmar and Ben moderates every forums. What I suggest is B/N forum to be restricted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diana_eva Posted June 7, 2015 Report Share Posted June 7, 2015 I do not understand this comment. Were they not moderated? I thought you and Barmar and Ben moderates every forums. What I suggest is B/N forum to be restricted. Yes this. I didn't word it properly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjbrr Posted June 7, 2015 Report Share Posted June 7, 2015 Can we just be clear and admit that BBF is totally and unequivocally opposed to banning posters? It would save some smart people a lot of time if we just get to the root of the problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diana_eva Posted June 7, 2015 Report Share Posted June 7, 2015 Can we just be clear and admit that BBF is totally and unequivocally opposed to banning posters? It would save some smart people a lot of time if we just get to the root of the problem. I'm opposed to banning posters for stupidity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjbrr Posted June 7, 2015 Report Share Posted June 7, 2015 So spamming aside, you'd agree that there is literally nothing a poster can say that warrants a ban. If you disagree, can you suggest an example? I have some examples in mind that you should be careful about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diana_eva Posted June 7, 2015 Report Share Posted June 7, 2015 So spamming aside, you'd agree that there is literally nothing a poster can say that warrants a ban. If you disagree, can you suggest an example? I have some examples in mind that you should be careful about. I'm very lenient and I admit it openly. If you don't see why people accused of trolling take offence and react badly, I'm sorry. I agree that we (mods) should protect the N/B Forums. We haven't done so before because it was not necessary. That has nothing to do with frequent accusations of trolling aimed at people who are morons, but not trolls. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeh Posted June 7, 2015 Report Share Posted June 7, 2015 I'm very lenient and I admit it openly. If you don't see why people accused of trolling take offence and react badly, I'm sorry. I agree that we (mods) should protect the N/B Forums. We haven't done so before because it was not necessary. That has nothing to do with frequent accusations of trolling aimed at people who are morons, but not trolls. I possess no monopoly on understanding the mindset of this guy, and confess that I 'see' trolling more often than most. I really have a tough time seeing this guy as merely stupid, tho. Do you agree that there is a difference? Do you agree that in principle trolling is banishable, as it is on most blogs/website, as far as I know (which isn't that far, in honesty)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrAce Posted June 7, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 7, 2015 I'm very lenient and I admit it openly. If you don't see why people accused of trolling take offence and react badly, I'm sorry. I agree that we (mods) should protect the N/B Forums. We haven't done so before because it was not necessary. That has nothing to do with frequent accusations of trolling aimed at people who are morons, but not trolls. Then I will have to ask you the same that I asked to Nige1, since you also conveniently ignoring the words such as "palookas" "fake experts" by him to just start flame, WAY BEFORE he was called a troll! And trying to sell us that he is acting like this because he took offence at being called a "troll" as if you calling him stupid is anything less offensive. And I am telling you, ONLY a troll would stick around a forum, where the 90 % of members think he is either STUPID or TROLL. I personally think he is BOTH.... I am just saying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manudude03 Posted June 8, 2015 Report Share Posted June 8, 2015 It's not like these posts just started recently. I did a google search for PhilG007 and came up with a couple of matches from 2013: http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/topic/62345-crazy-or-not-part-2/page__st__40http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/topic/62332-1h-1s-3h-3s-what-does-it-show/ It does seem his antics have gotten worse lately. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barmar Posted June 8, 2015 Report Share Posted June 8, 2015 I do not understand this comment. Were they not moderated? I thought you and Barmar and Ben moderates every forums. What I suggest is B/N forum to be restricted.I think they were referring to proactive moderation. We don't monitor everything that's posted (I don't even read the N/B, I/A, or Expert forums). Our moderation is mostly reactive, in response to reports from forum members. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nige1 Posted June 8, 2015 Report Share Posted June 8, 2015 I've got to start reading the forums more often again...I almost missed this thread altogether. Priceless. That's the last quote in the 1st thread cited by manudude03. PhilG003 has unpopular views but he stirs up excitement and interest :) Furthermore, unless PhilG003 really was trolling when he challenged MrAce, we'll soon be thrilled by a fascinating bridge-match :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diana_eva Posted June 8, 2015 Report Share Posted June 8, 2015 I possess no monopoly on understanding the mindset of this guy, and confess that I 'see' trolling more often than most. I really have a tough time seeing this guy as merely stupid, tho. Do you agree that there is a difference? Do you agree that in principle trolling is banishable, as it is on most blogs/website, as far as I know (which isn't that far, in honesty)? Yes I agree trolling is a bannable offense, and we banned a number of trolls where we had ways to establish that their motives were indeed to mess up with the community. This was done silently and quickly, with no bells and whistles, so it's likely most posters wouldn't even have noticed the said trolls. I'm not claiming he flipped only because you or others called him a troll. He's had enough of chances from the posters and from mods too - there was a good amount of back and forth from me and barry where we tried to explain that he's picking on the wrong people and he'd better make an effort to read what was said before fighting back. If someone is incapable of fitting in, so be it. However, when he starts a new thread and the first reply is "troll" that hardly gives him any chance to clean up his act. I'd like that each new clean thread be treated as, well, a new clean thread, without assuming malicious reasons behind it. This discussion is important to me because it defines the limitation of how much is enough. There are a lot more bad players out there than there are good players. Those bad players will be in and out the forums from time to time. They will be posting rubbish and they will try to defend it more or less aggressively or in an authoritative tone, because that's what many people do. When they see others don't agree they yell louder, rather than thinking of why the others don't agree with them. This is human nature, not naturally born trolls, and it will happen again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeh Posted June 8, 2015 Report Share Posted June 8, 2015 Yes I agree trolling is a bannable offense, and we banned a number of trolls where we had ways to establish that their motives were indeed to mess up with the community. This was done silently and quickly, with no bells and whistles, so it's likely most posters wouldn't even have noticed the said trolls. I'm not claiming he flipped only because you or others called him a troll. He's had enough of chances from the posters and from mods too - there was a good amount of back and forth from me and barry where we tried to explain that he's picking on the wrong people and he'd better make an effort to read what was said before fighting back. If someone is incapable of fitting in, so be it. However, when he starts a new thread and the first reply is "troll" that hardly gives him any chance to clean up his act. I'd like that each new clean thread be treated as, well, a new clean thread, without assuming malicious reasons behind it. This discussion is important to me because it defines the limitation of how much is enough. There are a lot more bad players out there than there are good players. Those bad players will be in and out the forums from time to time. They will be posting rubbish and they will try to defend it more or less aggressively or in an authoritative tone, because that's what many people do. When they see others don't agree they yell louder, rather than thinking of why the others don't agree with them. This is human nature, not naturally born trolls, and it will happen again.You may well be right, although I see no actual evidence as yet. If he were merely a bad player, spouting nonsense in the belief that it was good advice, why does he start threads about the LOTT or the mini-NT, as he did, purporting to want a discussion on the merits, and then write posts dismissing all but his own idea? I mean, if it walks like a troll, quacks like a troll, and looks like a troll, well, he is either a troll or a very unlucky man. Tell you what: let's give him a chance. If he is the least bit genuine, then surely the criticisms that have been made should get him worried that he is being unfairly characterized, and he ca undo all of that by making a post or two demonstrating that he is trying to be a contributor to the forum, reading and trying to understand what others write. I doubt that he will even try. He seems to have gone silent for a day or two, which I attribute to the fact that some of us are onto him, and he isn't getting the same sick jollies he was getting when he was fooling everyone. I may be wrong. Indeed, I hope I am entirely wrong about him. I don't have any problem with posters who aren't very good, so long as they are sincere. All of us had to learn sometime, and somewhere. This is a great place for inexperienced players to learn, if they want to learn. So: PhilG007, here's your chance to get me off your case, and maybe others as well. Are you the type of person who can admit to error? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diana_eva Posted June 8, 2015 Report Share Posted June 8, 2015 why does he start threads about the LOTT or the mini-NT, as he did, purporting to want a discussion on the merits, and then write posts dismissing all but his own idea? I believe that was his attempt to prove he isn't a troll, actually. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diana_eva Posted June 8, 2015 Report Share Posted June 8, 2015 Tbh, I would have no problem what so ever, if you guys decided that N/B forum is open to ONLY N/B players and MODS and players with stars. I would not be offended despite the fact that I made a living and still do from teaching. At least I would be comfortable knowing that palookas are not messing with N/B. It is not even a very populated forum. Mostly we have a novice or beginner asking a question now and then, and a pile of people answering just to make them even more confused. You-Ben-Barmar are more than capable of replying their questions along with the players with stars. There is not huge amount of N/B players coming everyday asking questions. Please protect them. This is done now. Barmar created a way to restrict specific posters from posting in the N/B Forums. If you or anyone else notices someone consistently posting bad/harmful advice in the N/B please report the posts and we'll consider limiting that person's posting rights. N/B is still open to anyone to post. Hopefully we won't need to use this restriction in the future, but if necessary it's possible to do that from now on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrAce Posted June 8, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 8, 2015 This is done now. Barmar created a way to restrict specific posters from posting in the N/B Forums. If you or anyone else notices someone consistently posting bad/harmful advice in the N/B please report the posts and we'll consider limiting that person's posting rights. N/B is still open to anyone to post. Hopefully we won't need to use this restriction in the future, but if necessary it's possible to do that from now on. Thank you and Barmar very much! That's all I was asking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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