omg, 25 hcp! now how to bid it

[goingoren]

♠ A64

♥ AQJ

♦ AQJ96

♣ AK

 

 

 

They all pass to me (obviously, I got all the points), and the uncontested bidding goes

me 2c

partner 2d

me 3d

partner 3NT.

 

Should I have bid 2nt myself over 2d? or how else should I have bid this hand?

[hrothgar]

♠ A64

♥ AQJ

♦ AQJ96

♣ AK

 

They all pass to me (obviously, I got all the points), and the uncontested bidding goes

me 2c

partner 2d

me 3d

partner 3NT.

 

Should I have bid 2nt myself over 2d? or how else should I have bid this hand?

 

This is clearly a 2♣ opener.

 

I prefer to treat this as a balanced hand and rebid NT rather than showing a single suited hand with Diamonds.

[ArtK78]

This is clearly a 2♣ opener.

 

I prefer to treat this as a balanced hand and rebid NT rather than showing a single suited hand with Diamonds.

I agree.

 

It becomes a question of how to show a balanced 25 count in your system.

 

A second question is whether this hand is worth more or less than 25 HCP, but we can ignore that question for present purposes.

 

Most people play that a 2NT opening bid shows a balanced hand with 20-21 HCP (or so). That means that if one opens 2♣ and rebids 2NT that one is showing a stronger balanced hand - about 22-24 HCP.

 

This hand is worth more than that. How players show a stronger balanced hand varies from partnership to partnership. Without any special conventions, a 2♣ opening followed by a jump to 3NT shows 25-27 HCP and a balanced hand. So, that would be the way to show this hand.

 

[i am assuming that a 3NT opening bid in your system is not a balanced strong hand. If it is, it may show this range of opening, so I would have to change my answer]

 

If I were to have the auction shown in your original post, I would bid 4NT over 3NT to show a stronger than minimum 2♣ opener. 4NT is not Blackwood. But I would only do this if it is possible that my partner could have an 8 count or better for his 2♦ response. You did not say what the meaning of 2♦ was. If it is negative, and that means that partner cannot have 8 or more HCP, then I pass 3NT.

 

 

[gszes]

well done.

 

Your partner heard that you have a long dia suit and a game forcing hand yet they chose 3n. I would be shocked if p had as much as 2 kings (and dia support) where they should at least choose 4d). I like your approach to the bidding. Holding 3 cards in each major your sequence made it possible for partner to introduce either (5 card) major. If you had jumped to 3n that would likely make a major suit game/slam impossible. 3n might indeed be the limit of the hand but 4h/s rates to score as many if not more tricks than 3n.

 

Another factor is that you have no honor combinations that need protection from the opening lead. Your p might have the stray spade Q which might become invaluable in 3n played from their side of the table. In essence you might have rightsided 3n. Yes defense after trick 1 will be easier when the gorilla hits the table but if p is weak there will most likely be little to the play anyway. Oddly enough it could also turn out to be beneficial if p has some unexpected holding (like QJT of clubs) where they can might be able to drop the J and Q the first two rounds possibly encouraging a club continuation to an otherwise impossible to reach trick (or QJx dropping x then Q for the same result).

 

Bidding 2n undervalues this probable 9 trick hand. Do not concern yourself with always having the bid hand hidden. Try and see the big picture and go for the bidding plan that offers your side the best chance to reach a variety of contracts. I applaud your 3d bid keep up the good work.

[goingoren]

from what i recall partner had like 7 or 8 points and slam was a lay down. 3 over tricks, lot of guys made 4.

[neilkaz]

from what i recall partner had like 7 or 8 points and slam was a lay down. 3 over tricks, lot of guys made 4.

It is normal for a 2♣ opening here in the US followed by a jump to 3NT to show 25-27. If you did this PD would at least make some sort of slam try or just bid 6 himself.

 

This is what I play with a few pards that want a 3NT opening to be natural (ie they don't play Gambling or something else for it). 3NT=25-26 HCP 2♣ followed by jumping to 3NT=27-28 HCP. Just like for 2NT openings, starting with 2C shows the stronger hand.

[PhilG007]

♠ A64

♥ AQJ

♦ AQJ96

♣ AK

 

 

 

They all pass to me (obviously, I got all the points), and the uncontested bidding goes

me 2c

partner 2d

me 3d

partner 3NT.

 

Should I have bid 2nt myself over 2d? or how else should I have bid this hand?

 

After the 2♦negative, a direct jump to 3NT shows a balanced 25-26 hcp Game has been reached,you've done your bit,now the rest is up to partner.It's best that you bid the game

and become declarer so the strong hand remains concealed and the opening lead comes up to it.

[Zelandakh]

I would treat the hand as a balanced 26 and bid accordingly. The choice then depends on the system being used, whether that be a 3NT opening, 2♣ followed by 3NT, or something else.

[WesleyC]

I agree with the other posters - ideally you would like to show this hand as balanced ~ 25+++ HCP.

 

However, given the way your auction started you might try 4NT over partner's 3NT. This should show a natural invite to slam.

[MRTRUB44]

from what i recall partner had like 7 or 8 points and slam was a lay down. 3 over tricks, lot of guys made 4.

I would not bid negative with 7 or 8 points, partner 2 Club open. Your partnership should agree on a negative reply to 2C at say no more than 3 points, otherwise show what you have. If P showed his suit or whatever strength he had, you would have bid more sensibly.

 

Say 2Clubs then 2Hearts (or whatever). You can then choose to show diamonds, support his suit, or try for slam.

[GrahamJson]

Disagree with the last post. To some extent whether to give a positive response or not depends on your main suit. You can respond 2H on a weaker hand than responding 3D. The modern trend is to treat 2D more as a relay than a negative, although I'm not convinced that is a great idea.

 

I prefer a 3NT rebid by opener, as it describes the hand accurately, although I don't object strongly to 3D. Whatever you rebid it sounds like partner should have gone beyond 3NT.

[ArtK78]

No one said that the 2♦ reply was negative. That is why I left open the possibility that partner could have 8 or more HCP for his 2♦ response in my previous post.

[fourdad]

The easiest, least confusing way to completely describe your hand is an old school 3NT opening. 25+ and flat hand.

 

Hard to miss slam if your partner has anything at all.

[zillahandp]

In basic acol in 1962 ben cohen and rhoda barrow siad a 3nt rebid after 2d response shows 25/26 ! Since the the one club systems have defined and refined, however if p has a bust It is style to underbid these hands aat pairs, (no entries) but go for game at teams especially vul, esp if losing.

[zillahandp]

Oh dear now read most of the other replies, no one apart from goren ever opened 3nt on 25/26

[keithhus]

I was told that 3NT opening was preemptive I.e. 7 of a minor with all 4 honours. Is that not valid? I play Acol. Thanks

[Zelandakh]

The standard meaning for a 3NT opening in Acol is a long, solid minor. Depending on the generation of Acol, there might be different requirements on the side - most these days would say no first round control and not too much strength. In other systems, 3NT might have a different meaning. There are a few BBF threads around on this subject.

[PhilG007]

I agree with the other posters - ideally you would like to show this hand as balanced ~ 25+++ HCP.

 

However, given the way your auction started you might try 4NT over partner's 3NT. This should show a natural invite to slam.

After his negative 2♦response,I don't think partner will be even remotely interested in a slam(if he was,he would

have made a positive response on the previous round ) so bidding 4NT will achieve nothing except to make an already

potentially difficult contract even more challenging to fulfil. :(

[lucky555]

Hi

If you want to play a fancy convention for this , then use Kokish

you bid 2H( relay) , your partner bids 2S (must), you bid 2nt (showing 25+ and balanced hand).

This way, you showed 25+ and you are still at the 2nt level which allows you to investigate major fit (puppet), etc

[PhilG007]

Hi

If you want to play a fancy convention for this , then use Kokish

you bid 2H( relay) , your partner bids 2S (must), you bid 2nt (showing 25+ and balanced hand).

This way, you showed 25+ and you are still at the 2nt level which allows you to investigate major fit (puppet), etc

This convention(like all conventions) is dependent upon partnership agreement. It doesn't float everyone's boat(me included) :wacko:

[Mbodell]

Hi

If you want to play a fancy convention for this , then use Kokish

you bid 2H( relay) , your partner bids 2S (must), you bid 2nt (showing 25+ and balanced hand).

This way, you showed 25+ and you are still at the 2nt level which allows you to investigate major fit (puppet), etc

 

In case it wasn't clear, given the forum, this is a common but minority treatment where after a 2♣ strong artificial and forcing bid and a 2♦ response (that can have a number of meanings depending on the pair including: Game forcing (3+); waiting (nearly automatic on anything); 1st negative (<8); etc.), then if opener makes a 2♥ bid it shows one of 2 types of hands:

 

1. A hand with primary hearts (possibly with a second suit as well, possibly single suiter)

2. A balanced hand even stronger than the 2♣-2♦-2nt sequence.

 

Responder in response to this 2♥ relay must bid 2♠, which is an artificial bid that allows the opener to describe which hand type they had.

 

With the strong balanced they bid 2nt (for me, at least 24+ (since 20-21 opens 2nt and 22-23 bids 2♣ then 2nt) but others might be 25+). Note when you get to these sort of point counts, it is very, very likely to be the minimum point value of any range just due to frequency of hands.

 

With the primary hearts, instead of the balanced hand, the opener instead makes a bid on the 3 level over the forced 2♠ response to show primary hearts and anything else about their hand (and again people play different things at the 3 level - easiest is just everything is natural, but there are very common switch treatments here if you ever get in more depth here).

 

I think this is a pretty good treatment overall, but it mostly doesn't matter what you do on really strong hands - especially at matchpoints - because they come up so infrequently. The most important thing is to be on the same page as partner.

[helene_t]

I don't think you can bid on after partner's 3nt. He could have Txxx Txxx x Txxx. You have already shown a gf with long diamonds and you don't have more than that. So respect partner's decision.

 

But it is better to rebid 3nt instead of 3d. It makes it a lot easier for partner to evaluate his hand.

[diana_eva]

No one said that the 2♦ reply was negative. That is why I left open the possibility that partner could have 8 or more HCP for his 2♦ response in my previous post.

 

Just want to emphasize this since several posters are basing their responses on the assumption that 2♦ was negative. 2♦ response is not necessarily negative. Unless you specifically agree with partner that 2♦ is negative, I would say you should not assume it promises nothing.

 

On this particular hand, as the auction went, I'm not convinced there's much else you can do over partner's 3NT. While 2D wont mean a bust hand by default, it could still be a bust hand so you're kinda trapped.

[Zelandakh]

If you want to play a fancy convention for this , then use Kokish

It is indeed an excellent convention but I suspect the other posters, like me, have avoided mentioning it due to this being the N/B forum. It was certainly one of the options I had in mind with the "or something else" comment in post #8 but not something I would want to recommend to a beginner.

[masse24]

After his negative 2♦response . . .

:blink:

 

Um, nope. Do not assume 2♦ is negative.