FIFA

[kenberg]

Thanks. I did not even know what Onion was until you mentioned.

 

Some years back one of the Onion guys was interviewed on NPR. They asked him if they ever rejected something on grounds of taste. Yes, they had. He cited, for example, killing a story after 9-11 that had the following: "We are as strong as ever", a spokesman for the Quadragon said.

[ArtK78]

No doubt, it was time to start justify the FIFA mobster...but there are a lot of questions in which way it happens.

 

What if the chinese justice let arrested in Brasil corriupt US managers because they break chinese law?

FIFA officials used US banks to handle their finances. That subjects them to US laws governing financial transactions. If, for some reason, US managers in Brazil were using Chinese financial institutions and violated Chinese laws governing financial transactions, then China would have a valid reason for seeking their arrest and extradition.

[kenberg]

I have been trying to put my finger on what it is that bothers me here.

Here is a link to a (pretty basic) Washington Post story.

 

 

Federal law grants law enforcement agencies broad authority to pursue criminal investigations as long as there is some connection to the United States, even a tangential one such as the involvement of a bank, Internet service provider or cell phone company.

 

"If you touch our shores with your corrupt enterprise … you will be held accountable," [FBI Director] Comey said Wednesday.

 

 

 

I understand that international organizations have to obey the laws of the countries that they are operating in, but this business about cell phones and the internet seems scary. If some non-US citizen in Switzerland uses his g-mail account while doing something corrupt with someone in Qatar then we can charge him?

 

I'm sure it isn't simple. Lots of money, lots of laws, lots of lawyers. But the thought that I could be arrested in Switzerland and extradited to France because I was drinking Bordeaux while engaging in corruption makes me uneasy.

[Aberlour10]

involvrement of internet server in United States = USA can justify everybody under the sun.

[mike777]

involvrement of internet server in United States = USA can justify everybody under the sun.

 

You raise an old but fair point. Government laws in theory can always be twisted by a Tyrant. The Law can always be perverted in the name of the greater good.

 

It helps to have checks and balances and competing interests but your point is fair.

[barmar]

If Google didn't want to subject their foreign customers to US laws, they could have offshore partners that operate their own servers, licensing Google's software. A country could even conceivably require Google to operate that way before allowing them to serve their customers.

 

In fact, I think China has regulations like that. When I worked at Akamai, we couldn't run servers in China ourselves, we needed to engage a Chinese company to do it for us.

[gwnn]

You managed to find the main culprit Aberlour. It's the evil American Imperialist Freemasonry again (as always). Poor innocent Blatter! I hope he will get out of this persecution unscathed.

[billw55]

You managed to find the main culprit Aberlour. It's the evil American Imperialist Freemasonry again (as always). Poor innocent Blatter! I hope he will get out of this persecution unscathed.

Chances are pretty good I think. Nothing seems to stick to him. Even if he is forced to retire, that is no special loss at his age and wealth.

[Cyberyeti]

The only way they'll get Blatter is if a load of the people they just fingered turn state's evidence and put the blame on him.

[Aberlour10]

You managed to find the main culprit Aberlour. It's the evil American Imperialist Freemasonry again (as always). Poor innocent Blatter! I hope he will get out of this persecution unscathed.

 

 

No reason to get excited. I wrote clearly FIFA mobster deserve it.

 

But there are other aspects and not only in this case. You may not to belive it, but there are people too in western world who dont like this upcoming Lex Americana. Thats all-

 

 

 

 

[gwnn]

It's fine to be anti-America but I think you can find better examples to bring up to make your point (NSA, drones, whatever) than investigating FIFA for corruption. That's all I'm saying. If you think there will be a Lex Americana, by all means speak up when they are implementing it against the weak and innocent, but not when they are investigating one of the largest and most corrupt organisations on the planet.

 

PS: the word you are looking for is not "justify" but "prosecute"

[Aberlour10]

It's fine to be anti-America but I think you can find better examples to bring up to make your point (NSA, drones, whatever) than investigating FIFA for corruption. That's all I'm saying. If you think there will be a Lex Americana, by all means speak up when they are implementing it against the weak and innocent, but not when they are investigating one of the largest and most corrupt organisations on the planet.

 

 

To be against Lex Americana is not equal with anti-american.This is bullshit and you know it.

 

This case is not isolate, there were several other where US justice pressured many countries by the way I dont want to name.

 

But it would hijack this topic finally.

[gwnn]

To be against Lex Americana is not equal with anti-american.

No no it is not, I am basing my "anti-American" remark more on your posting history in general in political threads. Like I said, there's nothing wrong with that per se (and your points are mostly valid, if a bit skewed) but your stance is a bit mistimed/absurd in this case. "Yes, FIFA is bad, but the Americans!!!" Some people use the same sentence but with a different 4-letter acronym. Yes this is getting off-topic. Good luck with your future American-bashing.

[Trinidad]

Gwnn, I think you are unfair here. Being worried about "Lex Americana" is not the same as being anti-American. Nor does it equate to supporting FIFA.

 

Kenberg has posted his worries about this "Lex Americana". I doubt you can call him anti-American.

 

Most posters here want the FIFA cleaned up. But the way this American law works is very shady.

 

What if the US government passed a law that makes promoting evolution theory a criminal offense? That would mean that half of us could be arrested and extradicted to the USA! After all, we are committing this crime on a server in Las Vegas, NV, USA.

 

So, I think the worries are genuine. Many people in this world are somehow linked to the USA. That doesn't mean that their actions (good or bad) are suddenly under the jurisdiction of the USA. What if other countries would do the same? Many Americans are -without knowing it- linked to many other countries.

 

Suppose the Finnish government would pass a similar law and decides that spelling errors should be punished by a fine of €10 per error. You and I don't have a say in that, and neither does Kenberg. Many of those Google servers are physically located in Lapland. (Good internet connections, low costs for cooling the servers.)

 

With the revenue their law generates, the Fins could afford to bribe all FIFA officials and the stadiums for the next world cup soccer would be in Helsinki, Kuopio, Oulu, Tampere, Turku, Rovaniemi, Lappenranta, and Jyväskylä.

 

Boy, are we lucky that they are more interested in hockey and ski jumping!

 

Rik

[mike777]

Gwnn, I think you are unfair here. Being worried about "Lex Americana" is not the same as being anti-American. Nor does it equate to supporting FIFA.

 

Kenberg has posted his worries about this "Lex Americana". I doubt you can call him anti-American.

 

Most posters here want the FIFA cleaned up. But the way this American law works is very shady.

 

What if the US government passed a law that makes promoting evolution theory a criminal offense? That would mean that half of us could be arrested and extradicted to the USA! After all, we are committing this crime on a server in Las Vegas, NV, USA.

 

So, I think the worries are genuine. Many people in this world are somehow linked to the USA. That doesn't mean that their actions (good or bad) are suddenly under the jurisdiction of the USA. What if other countries would do the same? Many Americans are -without knowing it- linked to many other countries.

 

Suppose the Finnish government would pass a similar law and decides that spelling errors should be punished by a fine of €10 per error. You and I don't have a say in that, and neither does Kenberg. Many of those Google servers are physically located in Lapland. (Good internet connections, low costs for cooling the servers.)

 

With the revenue their law generates, the Fins could afford to bribe all FIFA officials and the stadiums for the next world cup soccer would be in Helsinki, Kuopio, Oulu, Tampere, Turku, Rovaniemi, Lappenranta, and Jyväskylä.

 

Boy, are we lucky that they are more interested in hockey and ski jumping!

 

Rik

 

good ideas but I assume it does not have to be a federal law. I assume we can do this for city or county or state laws

I think you got a money maker here.

[mike777]

Gwnn, I think you are unfair here. Being worried about "Lex Americana" is not the same as being anti-American. Nor does it equate to supporting FIFA.

 

Kenberg has posted his worries about this "Lex Americana". I doubt you can call him anti-American.

 

Most posters here want the FIFA cleaned up. But the way this American law works is very shady.

 

What if the US government passed a law that makes promoting evolution theory a criminal offense? That would mean that half of us could be arrested and extradicted to the USA! After all, we are committing this crime on a server in Las Vegas, NV, USA.

 

So, I think the worries are genuine. Many people in this world are somehow linked to the USA. That doesn't mean that their actions (good or bad) are suddenly under the jurisdiction of the USA. What if other countries would do the same? Many Americans are -without knowing it- linked to many other countries.

 

Suppose the Finnish government would pass a similar law and decides that spelling errors should be punished by a fine of €10 per error. You and I don't have a say in that, and neither does Kenberg. Many of those Google servers are physically located in Lapland. (Good internet connections, low costs for cooling the servers.)

 

With the revenue their law generates, the Fins could afford to bribe all FIFA officials and the stadiums for the next world cup soccer would be in Helsinki, Kuopio, Oulu, Tampere, Turku, Rovaniemi, Lappenranta, and Jyväskylä.

 

Boy, are we lucky that they are more interested in hockey and ski jumping!

 

Rik

 

good ideas but I assume it does not have to be a federal law. I assume we can do this for city or county or state laws

I think you got a money maker here.

 

For example murders here are for the most part breaking the state law not federal govt.

 

If the server is in my local town....this may be a very good money making idea.

[Trinidad]

good ideas but I assume it does not have to be a federal law. I assume we can do this for city or county or state laws

I think you got a money maker here.

Great! That means that the stadiums won't be in Helsinki or Turku, etc., but in Kemi, Kemijärvi, Utsjoki. Soon there will be a rule change in soccer too: Goalies are not merely allowed to use their hands, they can use their andlers too!

 

Rik

[gwnn]

Gwnn, I think you are unfair here. Being worried about "Lex Americana" is not the same as being anti-American. Nor does it equate to supporting FIFA.

Good, because I have said neither of those things. I like to keep my posts so that people don't misunderstand them but I guess I need to try harder. All I said was that speaking out against "Lex Americana" is a good idea when some unfair or absurd law (like a spelling check law) is applied to some innocent individual but it is a strange thing to point out when completely reasonable laws are applied to high-ranking FIFA officials. Taken in isolation, being worried that the strongest entity in whatever field (in this case, the American justice system) may be abusing its power is a completely reasonable concern, but when this entity is charging an undoubtedly corrupt and immensely rich organization with corruption, this concern is a lot less reasonable and has a tinge of an agenda. My impression of anti-American bias is also based on my interpretation of Robert's posting history, which nobody has to share of course.

[eagles123]

Blatter is just a pure scumbag the whole of FIFA is corrupt and it all sucks. On the plus side Palace come 10th in the Premiership and its cricket season anyway. happy days

[Cyberyeti]

Blatter is just a pure scumbag the whole of FIFA is corrupt and it all sucks. On the plus side Palace come 10th in the Premiership and its cricket season anyway. happy days

 

Well it's happy days till the Aussies arrive, then it might get grim.

 

I share your view of Blatter. My suspicion is that he was put up to stand for another term by a number of African and Asian officials who feared they were going to jail if the cover up stopped.

[Trinidad]

Taken in isolation, being worried that the strongest entity in whatever field (in this case, the American justice system) may be abusing its power is a completely reasonable concern, but when this entity is charging an undoubtedly corrupt and immensely rich organization with corruption, this concern is a lot less reasonable and has a tinge of an agenda.

We want rules to be applied equally, don't we?

 

I don't doubt for a second that these FIFA guys are the bad guys. But that means that whatever country should prosecute them for whatever bad they did over there (with their feet on the ground). That is a rule for everybody, good guys or bad.

 

I don't want a law that gives any country the right to prosecute anyone for actions committed outside that country. Period. And I don't want such a law used to prosecute bad guys, because then it can also be used against good guys.

 

Why is this important? Because countries differ. Whoever is a bad guy in one country can be a good guy in another. If we would allow this, then Russia or Iran can arrest American gay rights activists also if they have never been to Russia or Iran.

 

Obviously, the spelling error part was a joke, but more seriously. Do we want to allow the Fins the right to arrest Americans (who don't even know where Finland is) for what they write on twitter?

 

The solution: Find things that these guys did wrong in the USA or find out where they did things wrong and prosecute over there. Not ideal, but better than letting the USA (or any other country for that matter) prosecute whoever everywhere.

 

Rik

[billw55]

Most posters here want the FIFA cleaned up.

I would prefer to see them replaced entirely.

[gwnn]

We want rules to be applied equally, don't we?

Yes we do.

I don't doubt for a second that these FIFA guys are the bad guys. But that means that whatever country should prosecute them for whatever bad they did over there (with their feet on the ground). That is a rule for everybody, good guys or bad.

With which I agree. edit: I missed the "with their feet on the ground" initially - so I disagree partially.

 

I don't want a law that gives any country the right to prosecute anyone for actions committed outside that country. Period.

With which I also agree.

And I don't want such a law used to prosecute bad guys, because then it can also be used against good guys.

Thanks, I never thought of that! It's not like I have written

 

Taken in isolation, being worried that the strongest entity in whatever field (in this case, the American justice system) may be abusing its power is a completely reasonable concern (snip)

 

Why is this important? Because countries differ. Whoever is a bad guy in one country can be a good guy in another. If we would allow this, then Russia or Iran can arrest American gay rights activists also if they have never been to Russia or Iran.

 

Obviously, the spelling error part was a joke, but more seriously. Do we want to allow the Fins the right to arrest Americans (who don't even know where Finland is) for what they write on twitter?

No. But if they use a Finnish bank account to defraud people or launder money, yes, we do.

The solution: Find things that these guys did wrong in the USA or find out where they did things wrong and prosecute over there. Not ideal, but better than letting the USA (or any other country for that matter) prosecute whoever everywhere.

Which is, as far as I am concerned, exactly what is going on right now. They are being prosecuted for frauds they did on American soil or using American bank accounts. What's the problem? Uploading a document (in your examples) to a US or Finnish server is fundamentally different than using the services of American banks for crimes.

 

There seems to be enough reason for the US Department of Justice to get involved (since the corruption was using American bank accounts) and all that I am saying is that I cannot be bothered if the DoJ oversteps their jurisdiction slightly (where would I draw the line? I don't know) in this particular case. I think if they laundered 10 million dollars with a US account and 1 million with a Swiss account, ideally we'd like US to prosecute them for only the 10M but if they get punished for 11 million instead, I don't care too much. I also consider it weird to be up in arms in this case by other people (i.e., it's not a position that I can sympathize with). If you disagree with this, fine, we can agree to disagree. I hope you will manage to understand what I was saying all along without going back and explaining why obvious overreaches are obvious, with that I agreed all along.

 

However, all of this depends of course on a bit more facts to know how much of an overreach is being done.

Edited May 29, 2015 by gwnn

[ggwhiz]

"The solution: Find things that these guys did wrong in the USA or find out where they did things wrong and prosecute over there. Not ideal, but better than letting the USA (or any other country for that matter) prosecute whoever everywhere."

 

A political satirist whom I can't recall was asked "If the US is so bad, why don't you leave?"

 

"I don't want to be subject to their foreign policy."

[barmar]

In addition to the money laundering involving US banks, isn't there also US interest due to bribery being involved in Qatar getting the 2022 World Cup over the US?

 

Which country's jurisdiction is appropriate for activities like this, which affect all the contending nations?