Pesky preempts

[Cyberyeti]

[hv=pc=n&s=sakqt8542hkdcaqj9&d=e&v=b&b=10&a=3h]133|200[/hv]

 

What's your plan here ?

 

If you double

I suspect partner bids 5♦

 

[nige1]

[hv=pc=n&s=sakqt8542hkdcaqj9&d=e&v=b&b=10&a=3h]133|200|

 

What's your plan here ? [/hv]

IMO 6♠ = 10, Double = 9. 4♥ = 8, 4♠ = 7. 6♠ might be a poor contract but probably better on a blind lead. Science is unlikely to help.

[mike777]

4s

 

give up on slam

 

option2=6s

[ArtK78]

Double is out of the question. Not only could it go all pass, but partner might just assume that our diamond holding is a little more robust than a void and insist on playing in diamonds.

 

4♠ insures a plus score against all but the most horrendous layouts of the cards. 5♠ might get partner to bid 6 with a trick. Unfortunately, he might assume that the ♦A is a trick.

 

There is no way to be sure about this. I think that 5♠ is the practical bid, as I just can't see bidding 4♠ with what looks like 11 tricks in hand. It may not work, but it is worth a try.

 

By the way, if you bid 6♠ over 3♥, how are you going to explain to partner that his holding the ♦A and the ♣K is not enough to bid 7?

[MrAce]

Shows why NLM is good even when it does not come.Perhaps we can use 4♥ for that type of hand then.

[ArtK78]

Shows why NLM is good even when it does not come.Perhaps we can use 4♥ for that type of hand then.

You have not convinced me. I like to be able to bid suits at the 4 level naturally over a 3 of a major preempt.

[ahydra]

By the way, if you bid 6♠ over 3♥, how are you going to explain to partner that his ♦A and ♣K is not enough to bid 7?

 

You're not, since you're still off the HA :P

 

ahydra

[MrAce]

You have not convinced me.

 

I was not trying to. I gave up on trying to convince people in BBF long time ago. Otoh, I am not even using NLM myself yet.

 

Also playing 4m natural is targeting to play 4m only. With minor hands you could start 3 NT, or 5m or 4♥.

[Cyberyeti]

You're not, since you're still off the HA :P

 

ahydra

 

That's the point, if partner holds ♦A(K) and ♣ K and bids 7, he's going to be disappointed, unless LHO decides you were prepared for a heart lead and does something else.

[ArtK78]

I was not trying to. I gave up on trying to convince people in BBF long time ago. Otoh, I am not even using NLM myself yet.

 

Also playing 4m natural is targeting to play 4m only. With minor hands you could start 3 NT, or 5m or 4♥.

I disagree. Overcalling 4m naturally allows you to play in 4m if partner chooses to pass, but it is not a stop bid. Partner is free to bid more, as your bid shows a very good hand.

[kuhchung]

I don't know what 5S means, but I'm going to try it. A good partner will have at least the CT.

[steve2005]

A♥ and K♣ only cards that matter. Anyone got a bidding method that can find that out starting at 3-level while stopping at 5♠ without and being able to be bid normal hands too. If they do they should patent it, otherwise take your best guess.

[MrAce]

I disagree. Overcalling 4m naturally allows you to play in 4m if partner chooses to pass, but it is not a stop bid. Partner is free to bid more, as your bid shows a very good hand.

 

Fair enough re disagreement but we already discussed the merits of 4m natural overcall in past. Everyone told their opinion. There are a lot of good players here who plays it one way and a lot of other good players who plays it otherwise. There is no need to debate it again here, in order to prevent hijacking. As I said, I still play 4m natural. But due to a lot of hands i have been dealt recently, I am reconsidering my choice on this seriously.

 

Despite the fact that yours and my styles/opinions/approach about bidding are fundamentally opposite to each other, I like your posts and enjoy debating with you. You are a fine player regardless of what you choose to play or not.

[ArtK78]

Just as a follow up to some of the earlier discussion, I wonder how partner will react to our 5♠ or 6♠ bid if he holds:

 

 

 

xxx

 

x

 

AKQJTx

 

Kxx

 

 

 

 

By the way, does anyone know why I can't eliminate the extra line space between the lines of cards anymore? I used to be able to do that.

[neilkaz]

Some people are worried about PD bidding 7 when lacking Ace♥. What would 6♥ be on this auction? What about 5♥?

[apollo1201]

Isn't 5S sth like "I have a monster but lack H control, bid 6 if you have it"?

[MrAce]

Isn't 5S sth like "I have a monster but lack H control, bid 6 if you have it"?

 

Yes, it asks for ♥ control. For some it is invitation to slam w/o ♥ control so responder can still bid 5♠ despite the ♥ control and this seems very popular among good players in BBF. I don't like it personally. Too much passing the ball imo. For some others like myself, it asks to bid slam when pd has ♥ control. But regardless of which fruit you choose, 5♠ is about ♥ control. In the old days it was about trump quality

 

It does not mean I have some freak hand, with or without ♥ control, figure it out and bid slam or pass. So 5♠ with this hand sounds awfully wrong to me. Why would anyone do this to his pd intentionally escapes me. As he said himself, pd will never know whether his ♣K is a trick or not, or AK diamond worth zero tricks. It is just simply unplayable method imo.

[ArtK78]

Isn't 5S sth like "I have a monster but lack H control, bid 6 if you have it"?

Not on this auction. If this were a slam investigating auction consisting of several bids after the opponent's call, then a jump to 5 would be asking about second round control in the opponent's suit. But this is a direct bid over 3♥. It can't mean that all I need for slam is control of their suit. It can only show an 11 trick hand needing a 12th trick.

 

As I said above, unfortunately partner is going to look at the ♦A and believe it is a 12th trick (which it would be if the opps lead a diamond). But I just can't bring myself to bid only 4♠ on this monster, and I am not going to make a takeout double if there is any chance that it may be passed out.

 

 

 

[eagles123]

5 spades seem totally pointless as partner has no idea which cards are valuable

 

seems like a pure guess between 4 and 6 and today i'm an optimist :)

[PhilG007]

[hv=pc=n&s=sakqt8542hkdcaqj9&d=e&v=b&b=10&a=3h]133|200[/hv]

 

What's your plan here ?

 

If you double

I suspect partner bids 5♦

 

I would pray....and then bid 6♠

[Cyberyeti]

I would pray....and then bid 6♠

 

I didn't bother praying, but bid 6♠.

 

A♥ was led and dummy decked with x, xx, AKJ10xxx, 10xx

 

Good news, at trick 2, LHO switches to a club to the 10-K-A

 

Bad news, he had all the remaining spades.

 

Worse news, the guy in your seat at the other table only bid 4♠ which is the limit if they kick off with 2 rounds of hearts.

[jdonn]

5♠ here definitely doesn't ask for heart control. It is a general invitation to slam. Think for a moment how much more useful that is than some 11 trick hand with xx of hearts. I will wait my whole life for that hand.

 

Here I think it's close between 5♠ and 6♠. The problem with 5 is I think it tends to be a hand where more general values in partner's hand will help, so he can raise if he thinks he has several cards that have a chance to help you. Here we are just looking for 1 out of 2 very specific cards, and might even make if he has neither which is why I would bid 6. Still it's hard to say whether 5 or 6 has better odds.

 

One thing to definitely not worry about is partner raising if we overcall 6. If he does, bid 7NT and claim, you probably have 18 tricks or more. An overcall of 6 is generally taking a chance somewhere, there is no way partner should raise because he has an outside A and K. If he has AKQJTx of diamonds he can just make a safe bet that we are void in diamonds.

[zillahandp]

My plan at thi point would be to try to get dbld in five spades so bid 4c and over opps or ps bid to bid 5s as if competing or converting or both, eg 3h 4c 4h or 5d but am bidding six spades over their six

[jodepp]

I guess what this hand boils down to is 'define what 5♠, 5N, 6♠ etc. means with your favorite partner'.

 

If you're on shaky ground partnership-wise, anything could work. 5♥ caters to partner having a string of decent clubs and out. 5♠ caters to partner actually looking at the ♥A with a spade or two. 6♠ might buy 7♠from a partner looking at the ♥A and the ♣K.

 

Even 4♠ could work out if partner can take a voluntary call (certainly not out of the question). I confess I'm on uncertain ground here even in my most frequent partnership, so I'll just bid what I think I can make - 6♠. Science be damned :)

[gszes]

Rho 3h vul preempt virtually guarantees the opps have the heart ace. That means slam is going to be 5050 at best depending on who has the club K (lho or P) and rho still has a tiny bit of room left for the club K as well. Top that off with the possibility of Jxxx with lho and slam appears to be a reasonable amount short of 50%. IMHO simply leap to

 

4s

 

At the very least p will assume we have a really decent spade suit and decent values and they will not get carried away when they have diamonds. Sure it seems like a pansy bid but 4s I reasonable given the facts of the stats on this particular hand. The tools to bid this slam all come with too much risk or are too "fuzzy" to use reliably. There is no science here to use do what you must but consider all of the facts before deciding.