Cheating on BBO

[Vampyr]

And how many masterpoints are awarded for online event? I. Other works what fraction of "normal" masterpoints do they count as

[barmar]

The online awards are 60% of f2f club games.

[Jacki]

The online awards are 60% of f2f club games.

 

Barry is correct as regards our 12 board games. However, we do offer 18 board games where the points are awarded at the same level as a club game.

 

Unfortunately these are not well attended, but they are offered. The entry fee for an 18 board game is $1.50 BB$ and awards masterpoints consisted with a regular club game. I pushed for this, it was implemented, but sadly it did not appeal to our players.

 

It's still available though. Spread the word, gather your friends and have a 'regular' tournament. There's a bit more thinking time in these 18 board games than there is in a Speedball game. So for the players who like to 1) have time to think and 2) would like a larger masterpoint award, and 3) don't mind spending more than an hour on a game, give these a try.

[Vampyr]

Barry is correct as regards our 12 board games. However, we do offer 18 board games where the points are awarded at the same level as a club game.

 

Unfortunately these are not well attended, but they are offered. The entry fee for an 18 board game is $1.50 BB$ and awards masterpoints consisted with a regular club game. I pushed for this, it was implemented, but sadly it did not appeal to our players.

 

It's still available though. Spread the word, gather your friends and have a 'regular' tournament. There's a bit more thinking time in these 18 board games than there is in a Speedball game. So for the players who like to 1) have time to think and 2) would like a larger masterpoint award, and 3) don't mind spending more than an hour on a game, give these a try.

 

Are the ACBL being a little short-sighted? Yes they can sell their product, masterpoints, with vastly fewer overheads on BBO. But some would say that at least one small part of their function is to offer organised bridge in North America. By making the product so much more readily and cheaply available online, it seems like the latter aim is being undermined.

[barmar]

Barry is correct as regards our 12 board games. However, we do offer 18 board games where the points are awarded at the same level as a club game.

 

Unfortunately these are not well attended, but they are offered. The entry fee for an 18 board game is $1.50 BB$ and awards masterpoints consisted with a regular club game. I pushed for this, it was implemented, but sadly it did not appeal to our players.

 

It's still available though. Spread the word, gather your friends and have a 'regular' tournament. There's a bit more thinking time in these 18 board games than there is in a Speedball game. So for the players who like to 1) have time to think and 2) would like a larger masterpoint award, and 3) don't mind spending more than an hour on a game, give these a try.

And unfortunately, the low attendance means that the masterpoint awards are low. The award for first place in an 18-board game is 0.1 MP per table, up to a maximum of 1.50. Since these 18 board tourneys typically only get 3-5 tables, the most they award is .50, while the 12-board tourneys usually award .90.

 

And we only offer the 18 board tourneys in robot form, not human tourneys. Because getting 12 people to play in an 18 board tourney seems to be nearly impossible (except for the weekly BBF tourneys).

[barmar]

Are the ACBL being a little short-sighted? Yes they can sell their product, masterpoints, with vastly fewer overheads on BBO. But some would say that at least one small part of their function is to offer organised bridge in North America. By making the product so much more readily and cheaply available online, it seems like the latter aim is being undermined.

I think you have it backwards -- it's BBO who has been pushing ACBL to make online bridge more like f2f bridge. We've had to fight for what we currently have, and there are factions that are continuing to try to reduce online bridge.

 

For instance, the recent change to MyHands, where you can only see your own robot tourneys, were needed to keep ACBL from killing Instant Robot Duplicates.

[iandayre]

Are ACBL points won on BBO counted as regular ACBL points?

 

They do not count in any annual point competitions, but they count toward your lifetime total and allow you to advance to LM and beyond.

[barmar]

They do not count in any annual point competitions

Except, of course, the Online category in the McKinney competition.

[movingon]

More concerning is cheating in ACBL tournaments.

I have on file about 15 hands bid and played by one person with two partners that I believe clearly indicate cheating. {removed}

 

I have only been checking hands for a couple of weeks now, have sent them in and am hoping that I will soon see that this person and his partner are no longer here.

 

We shall see.

 

Yesterday I posted an update to my original post (see above) indicating that this person is still playing in ACBL BBO tournaments with the same partners and the hands continue to suggest to me the passing of UI. This post was deleted.

 

Apparently BBO does not want me to post on this matter. I am once again disappointed.

 

Noreen Braun (movingon)

[Bbradley62]

Did you mention the name of the player (or his partner)?

[Zelandakh]

Did you mention the name of the player (or his partner)?

The name was not in the post when I read it.

[diana_eva]

I removed the post because I don't think this thread is supposed to collect reports of ongoing investigations or specific players. It's fine to discuss cheating, solutions but not post accusations or insist that someone is cheating yet they are still playing hence someone isn't doing their job. What if that person was found innocent, or inconclusive, or the investigation isn't over? Either way, abuse isn't going to chime in and give us all an update. We have to trust that they do their job without expecting follow-ups. Forums aren't a place to discuss specific cases IMO.

[movingon]

The name was not in the post when I read it.

 

nope no names

[johnu]

I have no idea how many cheating reports are filed each day/week/month, but an acknowledgment email that BBO is doing something would be good customer relations IMHO.

 

Could be simple form letter responses like:

 

We looked at your report and have not found anything suspicious

We looked at your report and are conducting further investigations

We looked at your report and suspended XXX for xxx days.

We looked at your report and you are an idiot for reporting these hands (just joking to see if you read my entire post :P )

[movingon]

After a report of possible cheating, the reporter is informed that a ticket has been opened and the pair is being looked at. When I make such a report, I gather about 5 hands (easily accessible through the My Hands website) and screen shot them to send in. Usually what happens after a week or two is that the pairis not seen further in ACBL games. Sometimes one of the pair is seen to continue to play but with other partners. So I then know that the situation has been handled.

 

How I spot a suspicious pair usually starts with first hand experience at my table in an ACBL tournament game. If something highly unusual occurs I will note it in the profiles of the opponents and mark them (to follow). If I see a repeat "unusual" bid, lead, defense, etc. I will start to look at their hands on the My Hands website (that is, if and when I have time) and see if there is a pattern.

 

Let me tell you, throughout the years I have been here and reported players, not ONE pair continued to play after my reports except for the pair (actually threesome) that I have been complaining about here. This indicates to me that BBO ACBL is doing their job.

 

The first hand experience with the primary pair in this case was a lead against a slam that no one in the entire field found. The leader's right hand opponent opened 1 heart and against a 6nt contract he found the lead of a heart away from the Qxx. This was the only lead to set the contract (and, of course, his partner had the King). I discovered a number of other hands with telling bidding and leads after this incident.

 

I am still sending in hands and expect the "investigative team" is still looking at the pair.

 

Noreen (movingon)

[1eyedjack]

Let me tell you, throughout the years I have been here and reported players, not ONE pair continued to play *under their previous names* after my reports except for the pair (actually threesome) that I have been complaining about here.

FYP

[diana_eva]

FYP

 

She's talking about ACBL events. Players are usually identified by ACBL# there, so it's not that easy to return under a new username *and* get to keep your masterpoints too. Unless someone likes to pay and play without winning the points, they're not coming back most of the times.

[1eyedjack]

She's talking about ACBL events. Players are usually identified by ACBL# there, so it's not that easy to return under a new username *and* get to keep your masterpoints too. Unless someone likes to pay and play without winning the points, they're not coming back most of the times.

I appreciated that she referred to ACBL events. I was not clear that she was referring exclusively to them. Furthermore you do not have to be an ACBL member to play in them. I am not an ACBL member and I have played in a few. Granted it is quite an expensive way to play if you are not buying ACBL masterpoints for your buck, so I expect that most of them are members. Whether the cheaters are randomly distributed between member and non-member players is more questionable.

 

But it does raise an interesting observation and/or query. The principal friend to the cheater on BBO is anonymity, coupled with an opportunity to create a new (likewise anonymous) account free of charge and free of delay, either as a replacement of or in addition to existing accounts. OK the shared IP address can counteract it perhaps - but red herring.

 

The validity of movingon's point presumably hinges on ACBL members entering ACBL tournaments, disclosing their ACBL membership, and then cheating and getting caught. I would be interested to know if the sanctions imposed by ACBL in those cases extend to live F2F tournaments. If so, given what they risk I find the alleged frequency of cheating (in that environment) to be surprising. If not, then why not?

[1eyedjack]

Developing my earlier point above, I think that it would be sensible for ACBL tournaments on BBO to be restricted to players who are ACBL members, and for participation to be contingent on disclosing your ACBL membership number. If the non-ACBL players who currently enter the tournaments are only a tiny minority (I have no access to the stats on that), then this suggested policy change would have very little impact on their revenue stream (or that of BBO) and the potential benefit of cleaning up the tournaments would be profound.

 

I do see a problem, however: If you are a cheater, and not particularly interested in amassing ACBL masterpoints, you could enter an ACBL tournament on BBO and enter some random ACBL membership ID. If you win and don't get caught, some unknown player in South Carolina may get a pleasant surprise, but you get the glowing satisfaction that your cheating has pulled one over on the world (oh, and you pick up some BBO masterpoints). If you get caught, some poor bastard in South Carolina gets slapped with the sanctions.

 

Given that you effectively surrender your anonymity when you enter your ACBL ID in a tournament, perhaps there should be an additional level of authentication.

[barmar]

Developing my earlier point above, I think that it would be sensible for ACBL tournaments on BBO to be restricted to players who are ACBL members, and for participation to be contingent on disclosing your ACBL membership number. If the non-ACBL players who currently enter the tournaments are only a tiny minority (I have no access to the stats on that), then this suggested policy change would have very little impact on their revenue stream (or that of BBO) and the potential benefit of cleaning up the tournaments would be profound.

I don't think ACBL permits that restriction -- f2f ACBL clubs aren't allowed to turn away non-members. Even ACBL sectional, regional, and national tournaments cannot do this, except in certain events (like North American Pairs and Grand National Teams), although they're allowed to charge an extra fee to non-members. And it's hardly in ACBL's or BBO's interest to turn these players away, since we get their money whether or not they're members.

[1eyedjack]

And it's hardly in ACBL's or BBO's interest to turn these players away, since we get their money whether or not they're members.

If the enhanced reputation of the event, derived from fewer cheaters, was sufficiently attractive, you might find an increased uptake in ACBL member attendance which more than compensates for the non-ACBL drop-off.

And it is possible as I said earlier that the current non-ACBL member attendance is so trivial that the revenue loss of that tranche is likewise trivial - but you would know the sums of that better than I. Even if there was a noticeable decline in revenue, it is arguable that the enhanced enjoyment of the remaining players is worth something intangible to BBO.

 

But as you say the entire question could be futile if ACBL have no powers to restrict entry.

 

Incidentally, if the loss of revenue would be that noticeable, due to large numbers of non ACBL members playing in those events, then my earlier FYP has restored relevance.

[barmar]

If the enhanced reputation of the event, derived from fewer cheaters, was sufficiently attractive, you might find an increased uptake in ACBL member attendance which more than compensates for the non-ACBL drop-off.

You're making quite an assumption that a significant number of non-members are cheaters, and members are almost all honest. It's not obvious to me that blocking all the non-members would significantly enhance the reputation of the events.

 

And if we do block them, they'll just go to our other games. So the ACBL games might get better, but the non-ACBL games will get worse, and the organizations who run those games might not appreciate that they have to deal with our refugees (but maybe they'll welcome the additional revenue).

[1eyedjack]

Earlier I wrote

 

It's justification would probably be enhanced if we were assured that ACBL sanctions against convicted online cheaters spilled over into their F2F membership (which I assume should be the case).

To which I received the response

 

You know what they say about when you assume....

Well, not really, apart from the obvious that assumptions can be flawed, along with derived conclusions. I interpret (assume?) the response to mean that Barmar disagrees with the validity of my assumption. Well, he may be right. It is a question of fact that should be trivial for those in the know to confirm. Does the ACBL extend F2F sanctions to online convicted cheaters, or does it not? And if not, why not?

 

EDIT:

 

This was supposed to be a new post, but instead overwrote one of my earlier posts. sorry about that. Lost the original now. Mistake

 

 

[barmar]

You know what they say about when you assume....

[movingon]

"The validity of movingon's point presumably hinges on ACBL members entering ACBL tournaments, disclosing their ACBL membership, and then cheating and getting caught. I would be interested to know if the sanctions imposed by ACBL in those cases extend to live F2F tournaments. If so, given what they risk I find the alleged frequency of cheating (in that environment) to be surprising. If not, then why not? "

 

Unfortunately I do not believe that the sanctions imposed here by BBO on ACBL apply to ACBL in general. I doubt that those banned from the site are ever reported to ACBL. I am thinking though that nothing would prevent any player on the site from making a report to ACBL on another player (not carrying much weight, perhaps?)

 

The person that I am still reporting hands on is a big time ACBL point getter (over 27,000 points, in fact--earned both here on BBO and in live ACBL tournaments throughout the country) and even if he is ever eliminated from the BBO ACBL site, I doubt he will lose the massive points he has gleaned here.

 

I only play ACBL tournaments, and my posts here apply solely to them.

Most players who cheat are not good enough to cheat well, I believe, and they don't last long on the strictly ACBL site here. This fellow and his partners are very fine players, however....