King of trumps closer to the Q of trumps or to an ace ?.

[benlessard]

This is designed for people who can keycard at a low level and know they DONT have a 10 cards fit or better.

 

My idea is to count the Q of trumps as a keycard (6 keycards) but do a parity check for the K&Q of trumps (turbo) instead of using a step to ask for the Q.

 

For the post opener is asking the keycards and spades is trumps.

 

4 & odd would be 3aces + K or Q of trumps, 4 and even would be AAAA or AAKQ

 

3 and odd would be AA+K or Q of trumps and 3+even would be AAA or A & KQ of trumps

 

2and odd would be A+K or Q of trumps and 2+even would be AA or KQ of trumps

ETC...

 

By adding one keycards you are using more of the higher numbers in the keycards responses wich I thikn are undersused. Especially the 5. 1(4), (3)0 , 2(5) I also think that after responder response you will be able to bid the cheapest step more often. It seem that asking for parity will be more frequent than asking for trumps Q.

 

Im keeping the 14,30,25(odd),25 even but its possible that there is a better order.

 

I see 5 cases.

 

You hold both the KQ of trumps. Both are the same you RKC and skip the Q ask.

 

You hold the K of S.

In standard you RKC and do a Q ask. My method is RKC followed by a parity ask. Its the same result except in my methods hes got one more keycards (hes going to have 3keycards instead of 2 etc..) so going from 1 to 2 or 4 to 5 is costing 2 spaces but 0 to 1, 2 to 3 and 3 to 4 is gaining one space.

 

You hold the QofS

RCK and you skip the Q of trumps, in my method ask for aces and you may ask for the parity so you will know if the 3 keycards is 2A+K or 3A. You could also not care and skip the parity ask.

 

You hold none & partner hold both of them.

RKC and ask for Q of trumps vs RKC and ask for parity.

 

This scheme is based on an hypothesis that the values of the K of trumps is closer to the value of the Q of trumps than to an ace. Im also assuming that you are more likely to be in a spot where you are missing an ace or the K of trumps (and would like to know wich one is missing) than missing the K or Q of trumps (and would like to know wich one). It really something that Im not sure about.

 

Also sometimes the side who is missing both the K and Q of trumps may try to temporizing and hope that its partner that ask for keycards, doing the same thing lacking the K of trumps is also possible but less likely. I believe knowing exactly how many aces partner got but sometimes not knowing if hes got the K or the Q of trumps is better than not knowing if hes got the K of trumps or an ace.

 

Another way to look at it.

 

The partnership got all the keycards and the Q of trumps = my methods should save a step when responder got the Qs except when 2/5 EVEN.

 

The partnership is missing an ace. If opener got the K of S its the same, if responder got the K of trumps opener can know if hes missing an ace and not the K of trumps.

 

The partneship is missing the K of trumps, if opener got the Q of trumps he will know that you have all the aces and that you are missing the K of trumps. If responder hold the Q of S opener will know the aces but not know if hes lacking the K or Q of trumps.

 

You are missing missing the Q of trumps. If opener got the K of S its the same, if responder got the Kofs opener can know if hes missing an ace and not the K of trumps.

Your missing the K of trumps if opener got the Q of trumps he will know that you have all the aces and that you are missing the K of trumps. If responder hold the Q of S opener will know the aces but not know if hes lacking the K or Q of trumps.

[benlessard]

-------------------- a case where you are missing no keycards.

 

AKxxx

xxx

KQx

AKx

 

 

QJxx

Axx

AJxxx

x

 

3D by N is rkc in S

 

3D---3S (30) (no need to do parity you have the 6 keycards)

vs

3D---4C (2+Q)

 

3D by south...

 

3D--3S (30) (no need to do parity you have the 6 keycards)

vs

3D--3S (30)

 

--------------------------- a case where you are missing the Q of trumps.

Kxxx

AKx

KQx

AKx

 

 

AJxx

xxx

AJxxx

x

 

3D by north is rkc in S...

 

3D--4C (2 even, so 2aces), vs 3NT (2noq) -- so lose one space.

 

3D by south asking for rkc.

 

3D--3S

3Nt--4C (3 odd so we know we are lacking K or Qs but do not know wich one)

 

vs

 

3D--3S

3Nt--4C (3 no Q)

 

-------------same hand but swithc A&Ks + Ad+Kd.

 

Axxx

Kxx

AQx

AKx

 

 

KJxx

Axxx

KJxxx

x

 

3D by N...

 

3D--3Nt (2 odd so A+ one trump honnor)

vs

3D--3NT (2+no Q)

 

3D by south

 

3D--3S (30)

3NT--4D (even) so 3A

 

in standard

 

3D--3S (30)

3NT--4C (no Q)

 

-------------same hand but switch Ks for Qs

 

Axxx

Kxx

KQx

AKx

 

 

QJxx

Axxx

AJxxx

x

 

3d by north....3S (30)

3NT---4C (so 2A+K or Qs)

 

vs

 

3NT--4C (2+Q but you dont know if the Ks is missing or is it an ace).

 

3D by south...4C (2 even so 2 aces)

 

vs

 

3D----3NT (2 no Q but dont know if you are missing an ace or the Ks)

[benlessard]

The partnership is missing no keycards and got the Q of trumps.

 

There 4 cases

 

asker___________responder

nothing_________KQ even

K_______________Q odd

Q_______________K odd

KQ______________nothing even

 

responder got KQ and X amount of aces...3NT is RKC...

 

0= 3NT-4S =2even_______________vs____________3NT-4C-4D-4S

1= 3NT-4C-4D-4H________________vs____________3Nt-4S

2= 3NT-4C-4D-4S________________vs____________3NT-4D-4H-4NT

3= 3NT-4S (5even)_______________vs____________3NT-4C-4D-4S

4= 3NT-4D (6!)__________________vs____________3Nt-4S (unlikely but not impossible)

 

 

responder got the Q and X aces (opener the K)

 

0= 3NT-4C_____________________vs____________3NT-4D-4H-4NT

1= 3NT-4H (2odd)_______________ vs____________3NT-4C-4D-4S

2= 3NT-4D_____________________ vs____________3NT-4S (2+Q)

3= 3NT-4C (4)-4D-4H (odd)________ vs____________3NT-4D-4H-4NT

4= 3NT-4H (5odd)_______________ vs____________3NT-4C-4D-4S

 

responder got the K and X aces (opener the Q)

 

0= 3NT-4C_____________________vs_______3NT-4C

1= 3NT-4H (2odd)_______________vs_______3NT-4C-4D-4S

2= 3NT-4D (3)__________________vs_______3NT-4S (2+Q)

3= 3NT-4C (4) 4D-4H (odd)_______vs_______3NT-4D-4H-4NT

4= 3NT-4H (5odd)_______________vs_______3NT-4C-4D-4S

 

Responder got no trump K/Q but X aces.

 

0= 3NT-4D________________vs____3NT-4D

1= 3NT-4C________________vs____3NT-4C

2= 3NT-4S__2even_________vs____3NT-4H (2noQ)

3= 3NT-4D________________vs____3NT-4D

4= 3NT-4C________________vs____3NT-4C

 

In short when your side have all the keycards and the Q counting the Q as a keycard save space wich is not surprising. Note that you have to be careful when you are comparing the endings if you play a scanning method.

 

4C vs 4H(2nQ) is only one step gain, because after 4C 4D is parity ask so 4H is the first K ask.

After for the 2+Q of higher responses you can show or deny the next king right away.

 

reponder got AA+Q+side king number 2

 

std 3NT-4S-4NT is the asking for sideking 2.

3NT-4D-4H-4S-4NT (4S is even denies side king 1 and 4NT is asking K2)

[Siegmund]

If pressed, I would say the K is closer to the Q than to the aces. That is true, in general, of kings, relative to aces and queens.

 

The trump king is worth quite a lot less than an ace -- lots of examples of this in Rexford's Variable Keycard Blackwood book, where he is able to distinguish between an ace or a trump king i certain auctions.

 

I experimented, a while ago, with the idea of 6- or 8-key-card blackwood -- thinking that with 5-5 type hand, you might want to ask for "any ace, or the Ks and Qs of the suits we care about" -- and it is REALLY hard to construct very many situations where the queen ask really is important.

 

In a lot of situations we would do better to just bid aces first and kings next, Stone age cuebidding style, with an asking bid for trump quality when we care about it.

[benlessard]

I did work a lot on this idea today. What i get is quite surprising.

 

Ive changed the method to

 

14,30,25(even),25(odd noK), 25(odd+side kings)

 

Also the point of comparaison is when responder denied side kings (or denied a specific K)

 

Our side got all the keycards and the Q of trumps. There is 4 cases

 

asker responder

nothing KQ even

K Q odd

Q K odd

KQ nothing even

 

responder got KQ and some aces. 3NT is RKC...

Left is standard right is my suggested method

 

KQ and the number of aces ...

0= 3NT-4C-4D-4S (Q+noK) ---------------- 3NT-4H-4S-4NT =2even no K -1

1= 3Nt-4S (2+QnoK) ---------------- 3NT-4D-4S-4NT (3no K) -1

2= 3NT-4D-4H-4NT --------------- 3NT-4C-4H-4S (noK) +1

3= 3NT-4C-4D-4S ------------------- 3NT-4H-4S-4NT (5 even noK) -1

4=3Nt-4S ---------------------- 3NT-4D (6!)**-4H-4S even

 

responder got the Q and X aces (asker the K and the rest of the aces)

 

Q and ...

0= 3NT-4D-4H-4NT -------------------- 3NT-4C-4H-4S +1

1= 3NT-4C-4D-4S ------------------ 3NT-4S

2= 3NT-4S (2+Q) ------------------- 3NT-4D (3)-4S-4NT -1

3= 3NT-4D-4H-4NT ------------------- 3NT-4C (4)-4H-4S +1

4= 3NT-4C-4D-4S ------------------- 3NT-4S

 

responder got the K and X aces (asker got the Q and the rest of the aces)

 

K and...

0= 3NT-4C-4H-4S ------------------ 3NT-4C-4H-4S

1= 3NT-4H-4S-4NT ------------------ 3NT-4S +1

2= 3NT-4D-4S-4NT ------------------ 3NT-4D-4S-4NT

3= 3NT-4C-4H-4S ----------------- 3NT-4C-4H-4S

4= 3NT-4H-4S-4Nt ------------------ 3NT-4S +1

 

Responder got no trump K/Q but X aces.

 

Only aces

0= 3NT-4D-4S-4NT ---------------- 3NT-4D-4H-4S ** +1

1= 3NT-4C-4H-4S ---------------- 3NT-4C-4H-4S

2= 3NT-4H-4S-4NT ----------------- 3NT-4H-4S-4NT

3= 3NT-4D-4S-4NT --------------------- 3NT-4D-4S-4Nt

4= 3NT-4C-4H-4S ---------------------- 3NT-4C-4H-4S

 

** when responder showed 0 or 6 keycards there is no need for parity.

In short when you have all the 6 keys counting the Q as a keycard is slightly better. This is expected because when you often dont need to ask for parity.

[benlessard]

Your side is missing an ace but you have the K and Q of trumps. Again there is 4 cases

 

asker responder

nothing KQ even

K Q odd

Q K odd

KQ nothing even

 

1- responder got KQ and X amount of aces...3NT is RKC...

Left is standard right is my method (im removing the 3NT for the rest)

 

KQ

 

0= 4C-4D-4S ----------------------- 4H-4S-4NT -1*

1= 4S ----------------------- 4D-4H-4S-4NT-5C -2*,**

2= 4D-4H-4NT ----------------------- 4C-4D-4H-4S-4NT *

3= 4C-4D-4S ----------------------- 4H-4S-4NT -1*

 

responder got the Q and X aces (asker got the K and the rest of the aces minus one)

 

Q

 

0=4D-4H-4NT --------------- 4C-4D-4S +1

1=4C-4D-4S ----------------- 4D-4H-4Nt -1

3=4D-4H-4NT ----------------- 4C-4D-4S +1

 

responder got the K and X amount of ace (asker got the Q and the rest of the aces minus one)

 

K

 

0=4C-4H-4S ------------- 4C-4D-4S *

1=4H-4S-4NT ------------- 4S +1*

2=4D-4S-4NT ------------- 4D-4H-4NT *

3=4C-4H-4S ---------------- 4C-4D-4S *

 

 

Responder got only aces. Asker got both the K&Q.

 

0=4D-4S-4NT ----------------- 4D-4H-4S *** +1

1=4C-4H-4S ----------------- 4C-4H-4S

2=4H-4S-4NT ---------------- 4H-4S-4NT

3= 4D-4S-4NT ---------------- 4D-4S-4NT

 

* asker will know that the missing keycard is an ace and not the K of trumps.

** asker is not forced to ask for parity but the holdings will be various. AAQ or AKQ or AAK

My method got the upper hand here, knowing than an ace is missing and not the K of trumps is nice.

[benlessard]

Your side is missing the K of trumps but you have all the aces and the Q. There is 2 cases here.

 

asker responder

nothing Q odd

Q nothing even

 

 

responder got the Q

 

0= 4D-4H-4Nt ----------------- 4C-4D-4S +1*

1= 4C-4D-4S ---------------- 4S *

2= 4S ---------------- 4D-4H-4NT -1*

3=4D-4H-4NT ---------------- 4C-4D-4S +1*

4= 4C-4D-4S ---------------- 4S *

 

 

responder got only aces (asker got the Q)

 

0=4D-4S-4NT ---------------- 4D-4H-4S +1**

1=4C-4H-4S ---------------- 4C-4D-4H-4S-4NT -1***

2=4H-4S-4Nt ---------------- 4H-4S-4NT ***

3= 4D-4S-4NT ----------------- 4D-4H-4S-4NT-5C -1***

4=4C-4H-4S ----------------- 4C-4D-4H-4S-4NT -1***

 

* asker know hes missing the K or Q of trumps but he doesnt know wich one.

** vs 0 keycard there is no parity ask

*** asker know that hes got all the aces but hes missing the K of trumps.

 

I think my method is slightly behind here, but note that hands where your side got 3 aces and the KQ of trumps is probably 4 times more likely than having AAAA+Q.

[benlessard]

Your side is missing the Q of trumps but you have all the aces and the K. There is 2 cases here.

 

asker responder

nothing K

K nothing

 

responder got the K

 

0= 4C-4D-4H-4S-4NT ------------ 4C-4D-4S +1*

1= 4H-4S-4NT ------------ 4S +1*

2=4D-4H-4S-4NT-5C ------------ 4D-4H-4NT +1*

3= 4C-4D-4H-4S-4NT ------------ 4C-4D-4S +1*

4= 4H-4S-4NT ------------ 4S +1*

 

 

responder got no KQ of trumps asker got the K you have all the aces.

 

Only aces

 

0= 4D-4H-4S-4NT-5C ----------- 4D-4H**-4S +2

1= 4C-4D-4H-4S-4NT ----------- 4C-4D-4S +1

2= 4H-4S-4NT ----------- 4H-4S-4NT

3= 4D-4H-4S-4NT-5C -------------4D-4H-4S-4NT-5C

4= 4C-4D-4H-4S-4Nt -------------- 4C-4D-4H-4S-4Nt

 

* asker doesnt know if its the K or the Q that is missing,

** vs 0 keycard no need to ask for parity.

 

Not knowing if its the K or Q is missing is annoying but having so many extra spaces im sure my method is winning here.

[benlessard]

I think this method or one close to it will work because

 

1- in standard when asker hold the Q of trumps its annoying that his cheapest bid is useless. Being able to ask for parity is more frequent.

 

2- When you have all the keycards +Q and responder got the Q you save a step.

 

3 when responder show no keycard or 6 of them ! you dont need parity and the cheapest bid is directly the side kings.

 

4- I think that odd is slightly more likely than even (having the K or Q rather than both or none)

 

5- I think (not sure) knowing that your missing an ace or that your missing the K of trumps is worth more than the case where your missing the K or Q of trumps but dont know wich.

 

6- You are more likely to have AAA+KQ (miss an ace) than AAAAK or AAAAQ

 

7- when your missing KQ of trumps slam might be excellent. Even missing a side K and the K of trumps can lead to a 75% slams.

 

The main drawback is that it deosnt work when you have 10 trumps unless the side who initiate the keycards got the K or Q of trumps.

[yunling]

Many people seem to be quite confident that they can catch Q of trump

Probably this is the strongest support for the traditional method :unsure:

[benlessard]

a better version on cloud.

 

 

 

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