Great slam - how to reach it?

[gedikk]

[hv=pc=n&w=sj87654hqda7caqj9&e=saqhaj87432dkck87&d=n&v=n&b=5&a=p1hp1sp]266|200[/hv]

E/W is a casual pd-ship playing 2/1; no interference by N/S.

It is a curious deal tempting to at least a slam try. However, no unique way to develop both hands using 2/1. You might offer your view and continuation to the bidding.

BBO record shows that only 1/3 of all pairs went above game, moreover using no fancy or scholar approach to reach the slam, IMHO.

[Cyberyeti]

While I don't play 2/1, I don't think this auction differs much from the possible Acol one:

 

1♥-1♠

3♥-3♠(don't like it, but anything else seems worse)

4♠-4N

5♠-6♠

[mikeh]

Anytime I am looking at the Q of hearts and Jxxxxx in spades once partner has jumped to 3♥ on the second round, I know what suit is trump...and it sure as heck isn't spades.

 

I think bidding 3♠, let alone driving to slam in spades is absurd. Partner will be endplayed into raising spades on all kinds of non-slam friendly holdings, such as Qxx or even Kx.

 

Meanwhile, unless partner is a beginner, that heart Q will be a very powerful card.

 

My view is:

 

1♥ 1♠

3♥ 4♣

4♦ 4♥

 

 

So far: 4♣ is a cuebid. One needs to decide, as a matter of systemic agreement, whether over a jump rebid of a major it is best for responder to still suggest a new suit (not his original response) as trump or whether to limit the discussion to the 2 suits already bid and notrump. I don't think it possible to do both. My view is that it is more likely and useful to explore slam based, at least ostensibly, on opener's suit than it is to try to find a fit at the 5-level...note that if 4m is natural, we cannot readily agree the fit below the 5-level (one could use an artificial 4♦ over responder's 4♣ but even so, what if responder's minor is diamonds?)

 

Over 4♣, opener has an easy 4♦ cue, and now responder, having made a try may decide to be cautious via 4♥, the other option being to bid 5♥ to imply that we need a spade control.

 

No matter what responder does over 4♦, opener will move again with that 7th trump and his side controls. For me, 4♠ would be kickback, tho there is an argument that it shouldn't be....why would we ask for keycards over 4♥ and not over 4♣?

 

Anyway, opener would commit to slam opposite a signoff and make a grand slam try via 5♠ over 5♥, over which I would expect responder to maybe bid 6♦ but not to ever commit to the grand.

 

I think most plausible auctions get to 6♥.

[Cyberyeti]

Anytime I am looking at the Q of hearts and Jxxxxx in spades once partner has jumped to 3♥ on the second round, I know what suit is trump...and it sure as heck isn't spades.

 

I think bidding 3♠, let alone driving to slam in spades is absurd. Partner will be endplayed into raising spades on all kinds of non-slam friendly holdings, such as Qxx or even Kx.

 

Meanwhile, unless partner is a beginner, that heart Q will be a very powerful card.

 

My view is:

 

1♥ 1♠

3♥ 4♣

4♦ 4♥

 

 

So far: 4♣ is a cuebid. One needs to decide, as a matter of systemic agreement, whether over a jump rebid of a major it is best for responder to still suggest a new suit (not his original response) as trump or whether to limit the discussion to the 2 suits already bid and notrump. I don't think it possible to do both. My view is that it is more likely and useful to explore slam based, at least ostensibly, on opener's suit than it is to try to find a fit at the 5-level...note that if 4m is natural, we cannot readily agree the fit below the 5-level (one could use an artificial 4♦ over responder's 4♣ but even so, what if responder's minor is diamonds?)

 

Over 4♣, opener has an easy 4♦ cue, and now responder, having made a try may decide to be cautious via 4♥, the other option being to bid 5♥ to imply that we need a spade control.

 

No matter what responder does over 4♦, opener will move again with that 7th trump and his side controls. For me, 4♠ would be kickback, tho there is an argument that it shouldn't be....why would we ask for keycards over 4♥ and not over 4♣?

 

Anyway, opener would commit to slam opposite a signoff and make a grand slam try via 5♠ over 5♥, over which I would expect responder to maybe bid 6♦ but not to ever commit to the grand.

 

I think most plausible auctions get to 6♥.

 

This may be a difference between what a 3♥ bid looks like in Acol and 2/1 I don't know, pretty much any hand too good for 2♥ with 6 hearts to the A empty has to rebid 3♥ so I'm not agreeing hearts at this stage, on a bad day, partner has AQ, Axxxxx, KQ, Kxx, and you might go off in 4♥ with 6♠ on (spades 3-2 offside, hearts 4-2). As it is make J♥ a small one and 6♠ is the slam to be in.

[marcindz]

Hello all :)

 

In my opinion the bidding should look something like:

1♥ -> 1♠ [no description needed]

3♥ -> 4♣

4NT [RKCB] -> 5♠

6♥ -> 6NT...

 

I will try to explain my thinking in the best way possible:

 

3♥ shows 6+hearts in midrange: generally speaking around 16PC. It is sort of irrational for the partner then to show 4♣ cue-bid !without hearts! in this sort of situation, but as it seems: worst case scenario there are 30 points in the deal for them, thus Owner of the lonely heart will drag the bidding and after an aces question on hearts he will wait for the 6♥ to pop to drag it for 6NT when the time comes.

[MrAce]

This may be a difference between what a 3♥ bid looks like in Acol and 2/1 I don't know, pretty much any hand too good for 2♥ with 6 hearts to the A empty has to rebid 3♥ so I'm not agreeing hearts at this stage, on a bad day, partner has AQ, Axxxxx, KQ, Kxx, and you might go off in 4♥ with 6♠ on (spades 3-2 offside, hearts 4-2). As it is make J♥ a small one and 6♠ is the slam to be in.

 

 

 

E/W is a casual pd-ship playing 2/1; no interference by N/S.

 

AQ Axxxxx KQ Kxx can bid 2 NT. But even if one has to bid 3♥ with this due to whatever system they play, suggesting to bid 3♠ with Jxxxxx when you have ♥ Q, just in case pd may have a trash suit like this +HH ♠ is a poor logic and can not be excused by hiding behind Acol tbh.

[Cyberyeti]

AQ Axxxxx KQ Kxx can bid 2 NT. But even if one has to bid 3♥ with this due to whatever system they play, suggesting to bid 3♠ with Jxxxxx when you have ♥ Q, just in case pd may have a trash suit like this +HH ♠ is a poor logic and can not be excused by hiding behind Acol tbh.

 

If you don't have a gadget here for the death hand or a slightly smaller version of it (and I'm assuming not from the OP), partner can still quite easily have 3 spades. Certainly for me, 3♠ says I have 5 decent spades or any 6 and not enough hearts to commit to hearts at this stage. You certainly wouldn't want to commit to hearts opposite AKx, AKxxxx, x, Kxx for example, and partner may not be able to put you back into spades as it may not be clear you have more than 4.

[Jinksy]

Plying Acol, I would not consider 3♥ over 3♠. As MrAce said, you can try 2N with values in all the suits or invent a 2m bid on most hands with a gap, such as AQ, Axxxxx, KQJ, xx.

 

With AKx, AKxxxx, x, Kxx, I wouldn't be sure what to bid - 3H seems tolerable (but prob doesn't play that much worse opposite responder's actual hand than the 9-card spade fit), but I think I'd prob still bid 2♣. If partner gets excited about my 'side suit' I can always put him back into spades later (and it feels like less of an underbid than 3♥).

[PhilKing]

My granny told me never to emphasise bad suits in slam auctions.

[Cyberyeti]

Plying Acol, I would not consider 3♥ over 3♠. As MrAce said, you can try 2N with values in all the suits or invent a 2m bid on most hands with a gap, such as AQ, Axxxxx, KQJ, xx.

 

With AKx, AKxxxx, x, Kxx, I wouldn't be sure what to bid - 3H seems tolerable (but prob doesn't play that much worse opposite responder's actual hand than the 9-card spade fit), but I think I'd prob still bid 2♣. If partner gets excited about my 'side suit' I can always put him back into spades later (and it feels like less of an underbid than 3♥).

 

My partner usually has Qxxxx, x, xxx, QJ10x if I bid 2♣ and that ends the auction.

[blink128]

Me and my partner play gazilli over 1♥ - 1♠, so the auction would start with 1♥ - 1♠ - 2♣(16+ or natural) - 2♦(8+) - 3♥(6+♥, <3♠, GF) - 4NT(quantitative) - 5♥(2aces, this is shown becouse of the long ♥suit which has a lot of trick-potential) - 6NT

[jodepp]

Given the problem parameters - casual methods - once opener jump-rebids 3♥ responder can cuebid and then drive to 6♥ once opener cooperates. The ♥Q is a big card after opener's start.

 

I don't see any sensible way to get to 6♠ which is a slightly better slam.

[zillahandp]

No way any answer beyond 4s is secomnd sight, and y do you think its makeable?

[Trump Echo]

1♥-1♠

3♥-4♣

4♠-6♥

[selba]

1♥ 1♠

3♥(15-17 6+H) 3♠(8-9 5+S)

4♣(7+H--2S) 4♦(1H--6+S)

4♠(2S) 4 NT

5♠ 5 NT

6♥ 7♠

Edited May 13, 2015 by selba

[case_no_6]

Neither 6S nor 6H is a "great" slam. Both are good slams in that they typically make more often than not, requiring only 3-2 trump splits (and 6S is slightly better than 6H in that it will make with a 4-1 trump split when the King is stiff in front of the AQ). But both are lucky slams in that normally bad things (like a stiff diamond K) happen to fit perfectly. Note that 6H would not be a good slam if a spade could not be pitched on a diamond and 6S would not be a good slam if a diamond loser needed to be ruffed. Very lucky.

 

My suggested auction is 1H-1S, 3H-4C, 4S-5D, 6S-P, but I think this is a very optimistic auction and requires the understanding that 4C cannot be bid without some kind of mild fit in hearts. (I think it should, but few pairs are likely to have such an agreement.) So it is very difficult to reach either slam and it is not clear that failure to reach the slam is a worrisome system inadequacy.

[Fluffy]

1♥-1♠

3♥-3♠

4♥

 

This leads to heart slam rather quickly. But best slam seems to be in NT

[gordontd]

1♥ 1♠

3♥(15-17 6+H) 3♠(8-9 5+S)

4♣(7+H--2S) 4♦(1H--6+S)

4♠(2S) 4 NT

5♠ 5 NT

6♥ 7♠

You want to be in a grand missing the trump king?

[PhilG007]

[hv=pc=n&w=sj87654hqda7caqj9&e=saqhaj87432dkck87&d=n&v=n&b=5&a=p1hp1sp]266|200[/hv]

E/W is a casual pd-ship playing 2/1; no interference by N/S.

It is a curious deal tempting to at least a slam try. However, no unique way to develop both hands using 2/1. You might offer your view and continuation to the bidding.

BBO record shows that only 1/3 of all pairs went above game, moreover using no fancy or scholar approach to reach the slam, IMHO.

 

I wouldn't be looking at any slam on these two hands. For one thing,they are misfitted;communication

is awkward. Either or both majors could break badly.♠♥ K109x in either opponents hand would be the death knell for any slam

3NT is possible on the example hands but even that would need some fancy footwork by declarer to bring it home.....

[masse24]

I wouldn't be looking at any slam on these two hands. For one thing,they are misfitted;communication

is awkward. Either or both majors could break badly.♠♥ K109x in either opponents hand would be the death knell for any slam

3NT is possible on the example hands but even that would need some fancy footwork by declarer to bring it home.....

:blink:

 

PhilG007 . . .

• 
   
  
• 3NT is cold. 100%. Cannot go down.
  
• KT9x in either opponent's hand is is roughly 10%.
  
• It's never too late to develop "fancy footwork." Learn to dance.
  

Out of morbid curiosity, what is your suggested (partscore) auction?

[gedikk]

Thanks to all contributors, various valuable points came out here:-) In recognition of considerable community interest, the topic even deserved a place at BBO billboard.

[wank]

This may be a difference between what a 3♥ bid looks like in Acol and 2/1 I don't know, pretty much any hand too good for 2♥ with 6 hearts to the A empty has to rebid 3♥ so I'm not agreeing hearts at this stage, on a bad day, partner has AQ, Axxxxx, KQ, Kxx, and you might go off in 4♥ with 6♠ on (spades 3-2 offside, hearts 4-2). As it is make J♥ a small one and 6♠ is the slam to be in.

 

it doesn't matter what system you're playing. bad players playing 2/1 jump rebid 3h on axxxxx. good players playing acol (with a client presumably) rebid 2m on hands with extra strength and a heart suit too bad for 3h.