ATB

[ArtK78]

Here is one from my district's GNT semifinals. Playing 2/1 GF, no Flannery:

 

[hv=pc=n&s=sq743h5dkq6ckjt63&n=sk2ha9643d4ca8742&d=n&v=0&b=1&a=1hp1sp2cp3cppp]266|200[/hv]

 

1. Assign the blame for failing to reach 5♣.

2. What was the single worst call (if any)?

[broze]

Not playing BART imo the South hand has to bid 4C (NF); 3C can just be a courtesy raise.

 

A nice hand for Kaplan inversion where you bid 1H-1S (0-4S) - 2C - 2S (forcing club raise)

[KurtGodel]

Very difficult to fault North's bidding in any way, if you don't play any gadgetry it can be tough to get to game here. South might have bid 4♣, but from their point of view 3NT could very easily be the right spot. South might also have chosen 2NT, but this doesn't help at all, the only alternative is 2♦, which seems excessive to say the least. To some extent it depends on your style, if North frequently has fewer than 4 clubs, then I don't think anyone is at fault. Even if North nearly always has length, I think it is tough to get to 5♣. With the actual South hand I would just have bid 2NT, which would not have been a great place to be.

[benlessard]

There is a hand almost exactly like this bid by Meckwell in "Playing With the Bridge Legends" by Barnet Shenkin (95% sure about the book).

 

The reasoning was this

 

2C was limited and could be 3. Responder will prefer to give a 2H preference or bid 2NT unless hes 5C+stiff H.

 

So game is good vs

 

Axxx

x

xxx

xxxxx

 

So North should bid 5C (not 4C!)

 

I guess that if north already promised 4C than maybe he can invite rather than blast to game.

[benlessard]

IIRC it was

 

1S-1NT (F)

2C-3C

5C!

 

opener had 11 pts 2A+K

 

Axxxx

??

?

?xxxx

[Cyberyeti]

Not playing BART imo the South hand has to bid 4C (NF); 3C can just be a courtesy raise.

 

A nice hand for Kaplan inversion where you bid 1H-1S (0-4S) - 2C - 2S (forcing club raise)

 

And 4♣ misses the cold 3N opposite Jx, AKxxx, J, Axxxx or similar with 5♣ unmakable, it's not really that simple

[PhantomSac]

Very difficult to fault North's bidding in any way, if you don't play any gadgetry it can be tough to get to game here.

 

I disagree, north has a fantastic hand imo. Note the difference in the north hand compared to Ax Kxxxx x Axxxx. Having the HA and out is great on hands when partner is likely to be stiff, there is no wastage. Obviously the fifth club and Kx of partners suit are good assets too.

 

On this hand partner had no aces and KQx of our stiff and game was still almost cold. Ofc the fifth club is very important for our hand, but with only 4 clubs partner will often have 5 spades or not much in diamonds (2N bid).

[gnasher]

IIRC it was

 

1S-1NT (F)

2C-3C

5C!

 

opener had 11 pts 2A+K

 

Axxxx

??

?

?xxxx

 

That's a very different auction from this one. In the forcing 1NT auction, 2♣ could be a 5323 12-count. In the auction in the original post, you can assume that opener has four clubs and therefore an unbalanced hand.

 

It's true that he will occasionally have only three, but only if he has some awkward strong hand. That's not a relevant consideration when we're deciding between inviting and driving game.

[KurtGodel]

I disagree, north has a fantastic hand imo. Note the difference in the north hand compared to Ax Kxxxx x Axxxx. Having the HA and out is great on hands when partner is likely to be stiff, there is no wastage. Obviously the fifth club and Kx of partners suit are good assets too.

 

On this hand partner had no aces and KQx of our stiff and game was still almost cold. Ofc the fifth club is very important for our hand, but with only 4 clubs partner will often have 5 spades or not much in diamonds (2N bid).

 

Agree that it's a decent hand, but is it enough to move? Surely your partner could have quite a lot of junk? I guess to some extent it depends how you play these raises.

[rhm]

I disagree, north has a fantastic hand imo. Note the difference in the north hand compared to Ax Kxxxx x Axxxx. Having the HA and out is great on hands when partner is likely to be stiff, there is no wastage. Obviously the fifth club and Kx of partners suit are good assets too.

 

On this hand partner had no aces and KQx of our stiff and game was still almost cold. Ofc the fifth club is very important for our hand, but with only 4 clubs partner will often have 5 spades or not much in diamonds (2N bid).

I agree completely.

 

Agree that it's a decent hand, but is it enough to move? Surely your partner could have quite a lot of junk? I guess to some extent it depends how you play these raises.

No it is not a matter of agreements. I do not care whether 3♣ could be a courtesy raise. (It could, for example if the diamond honors were low cards)

It is a matter of poor hand evaluation.

 

South bid well and North final pass is atrocious.

North should insist on game. I would have continued with Minorwood.

Change ♦Axx for ♦KQx in the South hand and the pair would have played a slam in a partial.

Or, to give another example, change the South hand to ♠AQxx, ♥x ♦xxx ♣KJT63

Evaluating distributional hands with a good trump fit mainly by HCP is the major reason for this type of disaster.

 

Rainer Herrmann

[KurtGodel]

Fair enough, I concede.

[PhantomSac]

Agree that it's a decent hand, but is it enough to move? Surely your partner could have quite a lot of junk? I guess to some extent it depends how you play these raises.

 

That's true, but yes I think north is worth a move. I would bid an oldfashioned 4C like a LOL. 2C 3C 4C 5C, great bidding! These hands are better for precision where you don't need courtesy raises, but my point remains that north needs to do something. Here's a sweet cherry picked hand Axxx x xxx Kxxxx. That looks like a courtesy raise and game is (almost) cold. Sure more wastage is likely, but so are more values etc. Even something like Axxxx x QJx Kxxx, a ton of wastage, only 4 trumps in dummy, seems like a reasonable game.

[PhantomSac]

Fair enough, I concede.

 

And after reading this hopefully it didn't seem I was harping on you! I like your posts and respond to them more since you seem like a smart and reasonable guy, in the past some people have taken that as me picking on them but hopefully you realize A) I don't think I'm necessarily right and B) I mainly respond to receptive, smart, capable players. Feel free to disagree/argue with me all you want, I think we will both be better for it.

[dboxley]

1. North 100%

South 0%

 

2: Pass

[ArtK78]

Thank you all for your responses. The discussion has turned in the direction that I was advocating - that the North hand should act over 3♣. I held the South hand.

 

Another interesting point was raised in the discussion in the post-mortem, and no one raised the point in this thread. What do you think of responding a forcing 1NT on the South hand, by-passing the spade suit? It may lead to a better auction, with the primary downside is that you may miss a 4-4 spade fit if partner has a minimum hand with 4-5 in the majors.

 

As I said, this point was raised in our post-mortem, but it was not a primary point of the discussion. I just found the idea interesting.

[benlessard]

please play Kaplan inversion you will not regret it. Both version, 1NT showing 5S or 4+S are fine.

 

I would even recommend playing

 

1H-1S-2Y-2S as art GF.

 

so when you make 1H-2C its always real clubs.

[mikeh]

Late to the thread, and Justin summed up my position pretty well. I thought I'd add a point or so about the nature of N's hand, which is part of the valuation issue.

 

On this auction, if S had a minimum, courtesy-type raise, with xx in hearts and only 4 clubs, he would likely have bid 2♥ in order to avoid a 4-4 on minimal hcp.

 

So if he has a minimum, then he has 5 clubs and/or a stiff heart.

 

If he has extras, then clearly we need to bid again......Axxxx xx Qx Kxxx would be a reasonable guess for a bad hand with more than a courtesy raise, and only 4 clubs, and even here some might suggest a cautionary 2♥. While game on this is bad, the 4 level is pretty safe.

 

I guess the point is that we really have to upgrade Aces and Kings once we have at least a 9 card fit....and the stiff diamond is important, as well as the fact that while his 1♠ bid didn't 'promise' values in the suit, the possession of length in the suit makes it probable that there are values there, and so our spade K grows up.

 

I don't consciously use any 'numbers' to assign upgrading values...hands look good or bad in context. But compare this North hand to Jx KQxxx Jx AJxx, which is more hcp but a far inferior hand. I'd make the OP hand worth between 1 and 2 tricks more than the 12 counter 2=5=2=4.

[alok c]

why not 4c by south to show superfit in clubs,singleton in hearts & near opening value?

[mikeh]

why not 4c by south to show superfit in clubs,singleton in hearts & near opening value?

because one cannot get to 3N over 4♣. Sometimes 9 tricks in notrump are easier than 11 in a minor.

[benlessard]

Here's a sweet cherry picked hand Axxx x xxx Kxxxx

 

Even

 

Axxx,x,xxx,xxxxx

 

and game will make if C are 2-1 and you will even be able to deal with 5-1 hearts by playing one round of trumps.So Its a 78% game.

[alok c]

because one cannot get to 3N over 4♣. Sometimes 9 tricks in notrump are easier than 11 in a minor.

After north shown atleast 5/4 in hearts & clubs, will it be prudent from souths point of view to play in notrumps?

[mikeh]

After north shown atleast 5/4 in hearts & clubs it will be prudent from souths point of view to play in notrumps?

Jx KQxxx Ax AQxx

 

16 real, and don't make me lower my view of your ability by suggesting a 1N opening bid, please. 3N is sort of trivial but 5♣ is not exactly cold if the opps know how to take their top winners.

 

That's just a simple example concocted with no thought whatsoever.

[dboxley]

please play Kaplan inversion you will not regret it. Both version, 1NT showing 5S or 4+S are fine.

 

I would even recommend playing

 

1H-1S-2Y-2S as art GF.

 

so when you make 1H-2C its always real clubs.

 

I like 2C to show a suit also and haven't yet had a problem with the following responses:

 

1M - 3NT = balanced 3 card raise 13-15 no 5 card suit worth mentioning, rarely if ever passed. Denies 4+ spades over 1H

 

1M - 1NT

2x - 3NT = 13-15 balanced w/o support for M

 

1H - 2S = 4+ spades, 3 card H support, GF You can use your own relays for more information, I use 2NT to find out how many spades but I'm sure there are better ways

 

Now you never have to manufacture a 2/1 response to a major.

[benlessard]

This forced you to play 1Nt wich i dont like also the jump to 3NT done with prime values is a notorious slam killer imo. However if you do play 1NT forcing you have to find meanings for the delayed jump to 3NT and its not obvious what is best to put there and the hands type you picked are reasonnable choices.

[PhantomSac]

I like 2C to show a suit also and haven't yet had a problem with the following responses:

 

You must never encounter a slam hand!