Undeclared opening known only to the opening side

[fromageGB]

NS on a normal F2F club night have no convention cards on display. North opens the bidding with 2♥, alerted. Local (EBU) regulations are such that this could be almost anything, including

 

a) any strength, 5 cards in a specific suit known only to opener and his partner

b) any strength, 4-4 in two specific suits known only to opener and his partner

 

East asks what the bid means, and is told "weak, 5 hearts and at least 4 in a minor".

South passes.

West makes a re-opening double on this hand [hv=pc=n&w=skqj4h72d42ckj975]133|100[/hv]

 

North passes, East passes for penalty, South bids 2♠, West doubles for penalty

North bids 3♦, East doubles for penalty, South bids 3♥, West passes

Noth passes, East doubles again for penalty, passed out.

 

NS get a disastrous score in 3♥ doubled, and ask for an adjustment to 2♥ undoubled, because West had UI from East's question.

[campboy]

Personally I think the regulations should (in some cases do) require a question here. In most jurisdictions this is a stop bid. There is absolutely no point in the next player pausing for 10 seconds without bothering to ask what the bid means.

 

In the EBU the relevant regulation (WB 1.6.2, extract) says:

 

After a jump bid, the next player MUST pause for about ten seconds before calling. It is an offence either not to pause or to show indifference when pausing. If the Stop card has been removed prematurely or has not been used, an opponent should nevertheless pause as though the Stop card had been used correctly.

Not asking sounds like showing indifference to me. I would be much more inclined to adjust the score if East doesn't ask and West doesn't protect.

[hrothgar]

NS on a normal F2F club night have no convention cards on display. North opens the bidding with 2♥, alerted. Local (EBU) regulations are such that this could be almost anything, including

 

a) any strength, 5 cards in a specific suit known only to opener and his partner

b) any strength, 4-4 in two specific suits known only to opener and his partner

 

East asks what the bid means, and is told "weak, 5 hearts and at least 4 in a minor".

South passes.

West makes a re-opening double on this hand [hv=pc=n&w=skqj4h72d42ckj975]133|100[/hv]

 

North passes, East passes for penalty, South bids 2♠, West doubles for penalty

North bids 3♦, East doubles for penalty, South bids 3♥, West passes

Noth passes, East doubles again for penalty, passed out.

 

NS get a disastrous score in 3♥ doubled, and ask for an adjustment to 2♥ undoubled, because West had UI from East's question.

 

I don't think "undeclared opening known only to the open side" means what you want it to mean.

With this said and done, it also doesn't seem salient to the question at hand.

 

If you are seriously interested in the answer to to this question, I suggest creating a poll on a different site.

Show the West hand, indicate what 2♥ showed and ask what people would bid in the balancing seat.

(I expect that the balancing bid will receive a lot of support, indicating that this was not suggested by UI)

 

Even if you don't see support for the balancing double, you'll still need to show the South hand to determine whether pulling 2♥ to 2♠ with a hand that can't tolerate playing in Diamonds breaks the link between consequent and subsequent. (Without seeing the hand, I am having trouble picturing a holding whether this isn't egregiously stupid.)

[NickRW]

I neither know nor care what the laws and regulations say about this. Allowing the opps to get away with 2♥ undoubled just because they made an alertable bid which E/W then couldn't find out what it meant without asking because it somehow "created UI" would be an absurd atrocity.

[helene_t]

The fact that the question was asked is obviously UI to West but even if East doesn't normally ask about alerted calls if he doesn't intend to bid, it could mean lots of things. Maybe he wanted to to take some kind of weak action (or a lead directing double, or a psyche) in case 2♥ was some kind of strong bid (or even a multi bid).

 

So I don't think we can say that W must pass if pass in an LA, unless he knows that his partner's question strongly suggests he has values.

 

But even if that is the case it is debatable if there are any LAs to double.

 

Btw I disagree that E should be obliged to ask. He might well know what the 2♥ bid means. If NS object that that is unlikely because NS don't have a CC then the answer is that they should solve that problem by having CCs. Especially when they play funny 2-openings.

[aguahombre]

I neither know nor care what the laws and regulations say about this. Allowing the opps to get away with 2♥ undoubled just because they made an alertable bid which E/W then couldn't find out what it meant without asking because it somehow "created UI" would be an absurd atrocity.

Oh, it's much better than that for the gadgeteers. Asking or NOT asking both generate UI. Partner and I are discussing nuances of all our bids and calls which might not be known to the opponents, so we can alert everything and whine "UI" all the time.

[Vampyr]

People who don't have convention cards should be especially scrupulous in announcing their methods before the start of a round. "5-card majors, weak NT, Multi 2♦ and Lucas Twos" would have avoided the whole issue.

[mgoetze]

I don't think "undeclared opening known only to the open side" means what you want it to mean.

More importantly, I don't think the question "Is there UI...?" means what you want it to mean. There is always UI.

[blackshoe]

I neither know nor care what the laws and regulations say about this. Allowing the opps to get away with 2♥ undoubled just because they made an alertable bid which E/W then couldn't find out what it meant without asking because it somehow "created UI" would be an absurd atrocity.

Absurd perhaps. Atrocity is an overbid. As for not caring what the rules say, I hope you don't direct. A director cannot take this attitude. Nor should we here when suggesting a ruling.

 

What does the EBU say about clubs' implementation of EBU regulations? Is the Blue Book (BB) supposed to be enforced in all clubs or do clubs have leeway to ignore part or all of it? Note that is a separate question from "do clubs ignore all or part of the BB when they feel like it?" IAC what are the regulations supposed to be in this club?

[barmar]

Not asking sounds like showing indifference to me.

I don't think that's what they meant by "showing indifference". The intent of that clause is that it shouldn't be easy to tell that you're hesitating only because of the regulation. The whole point of the required hesitation is to mask whether you actually have something to think about. If you don't have something to think about, you need to pretend that you're thinking about something.

[Vampyr]

I don't think that's what they meant by "showing indifference". The intent of that clause is that it shouldn't be easy to tell that you're hesitating only because of the regulation. The whole point of the required hesitation is to mask whether you actually have something to think about. If you don't have something to think about, you need to pretend that you're thinking about something.

 

It it difficult to pretend you are thinking what to do over a bid when you don't know what the bid means.

[fromageGB]

What does the EBU say about clubs' implementation of EBU regulations? Is the Blue Book (BB) supposed to be enforced in all clubs or do clubs have leeway to ignore part or all of it? Note that is a separate question from "do clubs ignore all or part of the BB when they feel like it?" IAC what are the regulations supposed to be in this club?

My understanding is that the EBU allows clubs to adopt any blue book regulations or not, as they wish. In the absence of specific club regulations, it is assumed that level 4 blue book regulations apply, and indeed the club specifies that EBU level 4 does apply.

[barmar]

It it difficult to pretend you are thinking what to do over a bid when you don't know what the bid means.

But there's no way for the other players to tell that you don't know what it means. Partner certainly shouldn't assume that the only reason you didn't ask while you were apparently thinking for 10 seconds is that it didn't matter because you have a useless hand.

[Lanor Fow]

In many cases they will know that you're unlikely to know what the bid means. With opening bids you may have looked at the card or had them explained, but with other calls often it's not listed, you don't know the pair involved and it's not come up yet.

 

Personally I always ask when a skip bid is alerted, but given I always ask here, which any partner of mine can verify, I am not passing significant UI by asking.

[campboy]

In many cases they will know that you're unlikely to know what the bid means. With opening bids you may have looked at the card or had them explained, but with other calls often it's not listed, you don't know the pair involved and it's not come up yet.

And in this particular case, there was no card for you to look at.

[Jeremy69A]

If a card had been supplied I could have exchanged it with my opponents at the start of the round and looked surreptitiously to find out what the bid was. The fact that the opponents are playing some methods, haven't produced a card, haven't announced it before the round diminishes any sympathy I might have. In any event the x of 2H looks obvious on this occasion.

Clubs are entitled to ignore regulation (but not law) so the Blue Book is not a requirement. It is not true to say that in the absence of any statement to the contrary Level 4 or any other level applies. It would be a reasonable assumption however that in the absence of any statement the norm relating to announcing and alerting applied. A club deciding to plough its own lonely furrow would be wise to make its deviance clear.

[barmar]

In many cases they will know that you're unlikely to know what the bid means. With opening bids you may have looked at the card or had them explained, but with other calls often it's not listed, you don't know the pair involved and it's not come up yet.

 

Personally I always ask when a skip bid is alerted, but given I always ask here, which any partner of mine can verify, I am not passing significant UI by asking.

Isn't it also the case that the required hesitation time starts after getting the explanation? So that's the time when you're supposed to not show disinterest.