Bidding 4C/4NT

[keithhus]

because of some recent experiences, I am thinking of advising my partners that 4 Clubs is always gerber and 4 NT is always Blackwood, regardless of previous bids. Bearing in mind the level I am playing at, do you think this is a sensible approach? Thanks

[helene_t]

I think 4 clubs is always natural and 4nt is always Blackwood is much better. Surely there are many situations in which 4c has to be natural - for example after the opponents preempt. And if 4nt is always Blackwood then you don't need gerber.

[keithhus]

I think 4 clubs is always natural and 4nt is always Blackwood is much better. Surely there are many situations in which 4c has to be natural - for example after the opponents preempt. And if 4nt is always Blackwood then you don't need gerber.

 

Thanks Helene. I'll think about t it but don't I need gerber to keep bidding low?

[kuhchung]

Gerber/Blackwood is only used when you are certain you have enough power for slam. It is a last minute check to make sure that you're not off two aces.

 

If you need to keep the bidding lower, it's a sign that you don't know whether or not you have the strength to be in slam. You shouldn't be asking for aces in that case.

[Vampyr]

Thanks Helene. I'll think about t it but don't I need gerber to keep bidding low?

 

Well, since Gerber is used only after NT openings, how do you bid it and then sign off in 4NT, which is always Blackwood ;)

 

Anyway if you are concerned about keeping the bidding low over suit bids you might want, at some point, to consider Kickback or Minorwood etc. in the meantime, I would suggest attempting to use Blackwood and Gerber correctly, and if it goes wrong discuss it with partner after the hand or after the session. This way you and your partners will begin to understand how and why you went wrong and how you could have done better, which will, in the long run, prove to be much more important than how you scored.

[keithhus]

Gerber/Blackwood is only used when you are certain you have enough power for slam. It is a last minute check to make sure that you're not off two aces.

 

If you need to keep the bidding lower, it's a sign that you don't know whether or not you have the strength to be in slam. You shouldn't be asking for aces in that case.

 

Thanks for response. What I mean by keeping bidding low is that if partnership is say, missing 2A s I can bid game (e.g. 4S) by using gerber but need to go to 5 if using Blackwood.

[keithhus]

Well, since Gerber is used only after NT openings, how do you bid it and then sign off in 4NT, which is always Blackwood ;)

 

Anyway if you are concerned about keeping the bidding low over suit bids you might want, at some point, to consider Kickback or Minorwood etc. in the meantime, I would suggest attempting to use Blackwood and Gerber correctly, and if it goes wrong discuss it with partner after the hand or after the session. This way you and your partners will begin to understand how and why you went wrong and how you could have done better, which will, in the long run, prove to be much more important than how you scored.

 

Thanks for response. I am aware that some pairs use gerber only after NT but I use it with any bid. This way I can stay at the 4 (game ) level, whereas Blackwood would put the bidding higher.

As you say I should use Blackwood and gerber correctly, I assume you would disagree with my approach. I am not aware of kickback or minor wood but will look into them to see if they appeal . Thanks once again for taking trouble to respond.

[helene_t]

Keithhus, have a look at kuhchung's post. It is a very important point.

 

If you really have the strength for slam but you are missing two aces then it means that you have almost everything except for those two aces. And then the 5-level is almost certainly safe.

 

On the other hand, if you don't know if you have the strength for slam, and you find out that you are missing only one ace (or even zero aces), and you then bid slam then it is very likely a bad slam. Three aces are just three tricks. You need twelve.

[keithhus]

Keithhus, have a look at kuhchung's post. It is a very important point.

 

If you really have the strength for slam but you are missing two aces then it means that you have almost everything except for those two aces. And then the 5-level is almost certainly safe.

 

On the other hand, if you don't know if you have the strength for slam, and you find out that you are missing only one ace (or even zero aces), and you then bid slam then it is very likely a bad slam. Three aces are just three tricks. You need twelve.

 

Yes but I don't see the point of going to 5 as score is same if I bid 4 and make 5 and certainly safer. Hence I have been looking to bid 4 or 6 and that is why I have been using gerber more extensively than perhaps I should.

[kuhchung]

It's hard for me to think of an auction where, by the time you have reached 4C, you already know what trumps are, you're already committed to slam if you're not off two aces, AND it was mandatory to stay out of 5.

 

However, we experience everyday auctions where you need 4C to be a cuebid to show a control + slam interest, or to show a help suit slam try, or to raise your partner's clubs, or to show your own suit, or to show a big raise of partner's suit, etc.

 

Better not to learn something bad just to have to unlearn it later.

[Trick13]

Try this rule:

4♣ is always Gerber if partner's last bid was a natural NT, but not otherwise.

 

Not perfect but clear and simple.

 

Of course, you have to apply common-sense. Not Gerber:

 

3♣ (P) 3NT (X); 4♣, or

3NT* (P) 4♣ * Gambling.

[mikestar13]

Try playing some sessions with a regular partner where you agree that neither Gerber nor Blackwood are played--yes no way to ask for aces. Lean the techniques of showing controls, extra strength, and trick sources. When you can do this fairly well, you will recognize certain hands that would be simplified by asking for aces; now change you agreement to Blackwood, using Gerber instead if and only if 4♣ is bid as a jump directly after a 1NT or 2NT bid that is your side's first natural bid of the auction.

 

Examples:

• 1NT-4♣ = Gerber
• 2NT-♣ = Gerber
• 2♣-2♦-2NT-4♣ = Gerber
• 1♦-1♠-1NT-4 = not Gerber
• 2♣-2♠-2NT-4♣ = not Gerber

 

 

 

[blackshoe]

Was it may, I'd play both 4♣ and 4NT always natural, and learn Italian style control bidding (showing aces and kings by bidding the suit, after agreeing trumps).

[manudude03]

Bid these 2 hands (south dealer):

 

[hv=pc=n&s=saq86hkq52dj2c872&n=skj7532ha96dak5c5]133|200[/hv]

 

Get to 6S? Good. Now bid them with south's hearts and clubs switched.

[Vampyr]

I am not aware of kickback or minor wood but will look into them to see if they appeal .

 

I would wait. You need fairly detailed rules about when these apply. The rules for Gerber given in other posts are pretty good, as is the advice in further posts that if you have the values for slam provided you are not off two aces, the five-level should be safe.

[echo25]

Bid these 2 hands (south dealer):

 

[hv=pc=n&s=saq86hkq52dj2c872&n=skj7532ha96dak5c5]133|200[/hv]

 

Get to 6S? Good. Now bid them with south's hearts and clubs switched.

 

1!c-1!s-2!s-2NT (relay, asking other 4)-3!c (4!c)-3!d (values)-3!s (points in spades)-4!c (cue bi)-4!s-pass...

 

I play Polish Club. In SAYC or other better minor system it may be better to play 2NT as asking singleton relay. Still, further bids are the same.

[helene_t]

I don't think that control bids are relevant at this level. Manudude's hand might be biddable by good club players using splinters but for almost everybody at my club it is just too difficult.

 

The real problem with gerber is that you need it as a natural bid whenever:

- clubs is a possible trump suit and we are already past 3c

- clubs is a possible trump suit and 3c would be non forcing and you don't want to bid 5c because you want to show slam interest, give partner room to ask for aces, or because you are not sure that clubs should be trumps and want to give partner room to suggest another suit.

 

Of course sometimes it is clear that clubs can't be trumps but that is no different from bidding any other suit which can't be trumps. If undiscussed it is still natural. It may show a feature in that suit. Just like

1h-2h

3d

which obviously isn't a suggestion to play diamonds.

 

You could agree that whenever 4♣ can't possibly be a suggestion to play clubs, then it is gerber, for example:

1♦-3♦

4♣

If you don't play control bids then it makes some sense to use it for ace asking. But if you are looking for something very simple, then it really must be "4♣ is never Gerber". Since the opposite just doesn't work.

[Vampyr]

I don't think that control bids are relevant at this level. Manudude's hand might be biddable by good club players using splinters but for almost everybody at my club it is just too difficult.

 

Yeah, I think that the best way to distinguish these hands is by using splinters, so it is a bit of an unfair challenge to a new player.

[keithhus]

Bid these 2 hands (south dealer):

 

[hv=pc=n&s=saq86hkq52dj2c872&n=skj7532ha96dak5c5]133|200[/hv]

 

Get to 6S? Good. Now bid them with south's hearts and clubs switched.

 

Currently, my bidding would be the same in both cases - i.e.

Open 1H/1C; I would expect response to be 3S and I would bid gerber. Could you help me please in telling me where/why I am going wrong.

 

I do not use control bids at present but from responses, I think this is something I should attempt to adopt. I appreciate, as has been said by Helene, that my current approach of using gerber does preclude some bids but I thought I had a nice simple system!!

 

Thank you everyone for your responses; I clearly need to reconsider.

 

Sorry, should add that my current system is that 4 C is always gerber regardless of previous bid.

[Vampyr]

Currently, my bidding would be the same in both cases - i.e.

Open 1H/1C; I would expect response to be 3S and I would bid gerber. Could you help me please in telling me where/why I am going wrong.

 

If this is what you are comfortable with, then continue to play this way. After all, it does not matter what other people say; the real reason to make a change in your system is that you realise that your current methods are inadequate. Then you will consider a change and you will know what improvement you are gaining, you will know what you are giving up in exchange etc. You will own the change.

 

Right now I am more interested in the 3♠ bid.

[ArtK78]

1!c-1!s-2!s-2NT (relay, asking other 4)-3!c (4!c)-3!d (values)-3!s (points in spades)-4!c (cue bi)-4!s-pass...

 

I play Polish Club. In SAYC or other better minor system it may be better to play 2NT as asking singleton relay. Still, further bids are the same.

This forum is titled "Natural Bidding." So while your methods may be good, they are not appropriate for this thread.

[helene_t]

Keithhus, do you really mean that for example

(3♠)-dbl-(pass)-4♣

is gerber, so with

♠432

♥432

♦432

♣5432

you would have to bid 5♣ in response to partner's double?

[fourdad]

Bid these 2 hands (south dealer):

 

[hv=pc=n&s=saq86hkq52dj2c872&n=skj7532ha96dak5c5]133|200[/hv]

 

Get to 6S? Good. Now bid them with south's hearts and clubs switched.

 

 

In either scenario- 1C-1S-2S-6S....the N hand values at 20 points, why mess around and give the opps info?

 

If you want to use gerber, make it only after the LAST NT and never when clubs have bid bid natuarlly twice in the auction.

[helene_t]

In either scenario- 1C-1S-2S-6S....the N hand values at 20 points, why mess around and give the opps info?

With South's clubs/hearts swapped the slam is not great against poor defenders and almost hopeless against good defenders. You need to avoid the club lead AND you need East to hold the ace of clubs. Even then, a clever East can beat you by ducking the first club trick. Unless East has ace-doubleton (or singleton).

[daffydoc]

If you want to improve your slam bidding, agree to play NO ace asking bids for a period of time( one month to one year), you will be surprised how much better your general slam bidding becomes when you consider what partner has actually shown rather than thinking that aces are the only requirement to make slam. daffydoc