4441 opening bid

[Liversidge]

Playing Acol weak no trump what do I open with this hand and why?

Spades AQ76

Hearts KJ32

Diamonds K874

Clubs 9

 

If I bid 1 Diamond and partner responds 2 Clubs I am too weak for 2NT.

If I bid 1 Heart and partner responds 2 Clubs then a rebid of 2 Diamonds shows five hearts. Which lie is the least bad? Or should I pass?

[helene_t]

You have to bid 1H. Yes you might have to pretend to have five but 1d is worse.

With a singleton honour in clubs I would prefer 1nt.

[Cyberyeti]

You have to bid 1H. Yes you might have to pretend to have five but 1d is worse.

With a singleton honour in clubs I would prefer 1nt.

 

There is a considerable difference of opinion here. You should note that this is in a weak NT context.

 

Some people prefer not to ever admit to holding a 5 card major they don't have, so open 1♦ and rebid 2♦, we are among that number. Others routinely open 1N.

 

You also need another agreement which many regard as just bridge, that if you have a 4 card major and longer minor, you only bid the minor if you're prepared to bid the major when partner repeats his suit, so if partner opens 1♦, you respond 1♠ unless you're going to bid 2♠ if the auction starts 1♦-2♣-2♦, you can't pass 2♦.

[helene_t]

You should note that this is in a weak NT context.

Yes exactly. In a strong notrump system this hand is not a problem.

 

I don't think bidding diamonds twice is recommmended unless you play the 2♦ rebid as forcing which is very non-standard in England. Unless maybe you suit is good enough to be ok playing 2♦ in a 4-2 fit.

 

Anyway, partner should assume that 1♥ followed by 2♦ shows five hearts and not wory about this since it doesn't come up very often. With a modest 12 you can pass, with a good 14 you may upgrade to a 1NT rebid, with a very good diamond suit you can bid it twice as you suggest, with a singleton honour in clubs you can open 1NT. So usually there is a decent alternative.

[wanoff]

 

I don't think bidding diamonds twice is recommended unless you play the 2♦ rebid as forcing which is very non-standard in England.

 

Anyway, partner should assume that 1♥ followed by 2♦ shows five hearts and not wory about this since it doesn't come up very often. With a modest 12 you can pass, with a good 14 you may upgrade to a 1NT rebid, with a very good diamond suit you can bid it twice as you suggest, with a singleton honour in clubs you can open 1NT. So usually there is a decent alternative.

 

It'll come up about as often as opening 1♦ with 4441.

Playing the 4-2 fit is a risk but not on the scale of 4♥ on a 4-3 fit with bad breaks.

[StevenG]

I've found that opening 1♦ seems to work best.

[NickRW]

1H with 4=4=4=1 shape is standard Acol where I come from. 1h-2c-2d, for that reason, strongly implies but does not 100% guarantee 5 hearts.

 

The alternative of opening 1d and rebidding 2d as a waiting bid over 2c works fine too, but it really requires that your 2c response guarantees a rebid (which is a tad stronger than normal Acol requirements).

[helene_t]

It'll come up about as often as opening 1♦ with 4441.

Playing the 4-2 fit is a risk but not on the scale of 4♥ on a 4-3 fit with bad breaks.

Interesting, maybe the traditional approach is wrong on this one after all. I suppose that if responder has six good clubs he may rebid 3♣ after our 2♦ rebid so the risk of playing in a 4-1 fit is very small.

 

Is

1♥-2♣

2♦-3♥

forcing? I think it should be but probably it isn't for most Acol players. In that case it may be better not to pretend to have five hearts as responder will jump to 4♥ on many hands with 3-card support.

 

On the other hand, if it is forcing, then responder will normally just rebid 3♥ after which you can rebid 3NT. But the question is if this particular hand type is frequent enough to cater to. If the 2♦ rebid promises five hearts, then opener's 3rd round 3NT bid would be available for something else.

[keithhus]

My teaching was -

. With a singleton red, open with suit below singleton

. With a black, open with suit in the middle

Is this still valid? Thanks

[helene_t]

My teaching was -

. With a singleton red, open with suit below singleton

. With a black, open with suit in the middle

Is this still valid? Thanks

Yes, that is the most common approach. In the latest EBU magazine one of the authors (was it Mike Byrne?) recommended opening 1♣ with a singleton hearts, though.

[keithhus]

Yes, that is the most common approach. In the latest EBU magazine one of the authors (was it Mike Byrne?) recommended opening 1♣ with a singleton hearts, though.

 

Thanks Helene

[steve2005]

1H with 4=4=4=1 shape is standard Acol where I come from. 1h-2c-2d, for that reason, strongly implies but does not 100% guarantee 5 hearts.

 

The alternative of opening 1d and rebidding 2d as a waiting bid over 2c works fine too, but it really requires that your 2c response guarantees a rebid (which is a tad stronger than normal Acol requirements).

Their playing Acol so a 4-card major ok. I don't see the problem 1♥.

[helene_t]

The problem is that when you rebid 2♦ you "promise" a fifth heart.

[hrothgar]

One way or another, there is a very real chance that you are going to be forced into a lie.

You need to decide which of these lies is the least misrepresentation of your hand.

 

My eyes aren't that good.

I'm going to shove a spade into my clubs and open 1N

[mike777]

If pass is permitted with this hand in first or second seat in Acol then I will try that.

 

If not then perhaps 1nt is least lie?

 

In third or fourth seat opener I will try 1d planning on passing 2c?

[Tramticket]

4441 hands are difficult holdings for Acol – particularly with a singleton club. Modern Acol uses the approach that there are two possibilities when you open one of a suit: either (i) you are balanced and too strong to open 1NT – you plan to rebid in No Trumps or (ii) you are unbalanced – you plan to rebid your second suit and will promise five cards in your first suit. The 4441 hand doesn’t quite fit into either category.

 

This means that you are going to have to tell your partner a lie. The options are:

• You open 1D, planning to rebid 2D if partner responds 2C. This is a lie as you promise a 5-card diamond suit.

• You open 1D (or 1H), planning to rebid 2NT if partner responds 2C. This is a lie as you promise 15+ points, but only have 13 (and you have a singleton – although this would be a lesser lie if you have a 15+ hand).

• You open 1H, planning to rebid 2D if partner responds 2C. This is a lie as you promise a 5-card heart suit.

• You open 1NT showing a balanced hand. This is a lie as you have a singleton (a singleton A or K might make this a more acceptable solution).

• You pass. This is a lie as you have 13 points (passing a 4441 12 count can be reasonable, but passing a 13 count??).

 

The EBU teaching material recommends opening 1H and rebidding 2D. But I am unhappy lying about my major suit length and like a growing number of Acol players, I now choose to open 1D.

[mycroft]

4441 hands are difficult holdings no matter what system you play. So much so that some systems have assigned a special opening bid for them (or some of them, anyway). That's also bad, because 4441s are "just frequent enough to be annoying" - so the call is a bit of a waste of an opening slot (and the fact that opening "4441" tells the defence what to do).

 

Do your best and hope to survive, knowing that everyone else has the same problem.

[steve2005]

4441 hands are difficult holdings no matter what system you play. So much so that some systems have assigned a special opening bid for them (or some of them, anyway). That's also bad, because 4441s are "just frequent enough to be annoying" - so the call is a bit of a waste of an opening slot (and the fact that opening "4441" tells the defence what to do.

 

Do your best and hope to survive, knowing that everyone else has the same problem.

Yes, difficult and rare. My Acol book says specifically open 1♥ and rebid 2♦ over 2♣. This does not "promise" 5♥ though is likely. So in Acol you occasionally play in 4-3 fits that is the price of playing Acol. This is a reasonable solution, other systems have different methods and different costs. Of course there are exceptions, poor hearts or club honor another bid could be used.

[Tramticket]

You are right that most Acol literature recommends opening 1H and rebidding 1D. But you need to be aware that you are compromising a very valuable part of the modern Acol system: bidding two suits promises a five-card holding in the first suit.

Several things can go wrong when you open 1H:

1. Partner might respond 1C then jump to 4H with a three-card suit, expecting you to have five.
   
2. Partner might respond 2C then give you false preference back to hearts on a two-card suit.
   
3. Partner might respond 1NT on a 6-9 point hand with a five or six-card diamond suit and be left in 1NT.
   

There are no easy solutions.

[Oof Arted]

You are right that most Acol literature recommends opening 1H and rebidding 1D. But you need to be aware that you are compromising a very valuable part of the modern Acol system: bidding two suits promises a five-card holding in the first suit.

Several things can go wrong when you open 1H:

1. Partner might respond 1C then jump to 4H with a three-card suit, expecting you to have five.
   
2. Partner might respond 2C then give you false preference back to hearts on a two-card suit.
   
3. Partner might respond 1NT on a 6-9 point hand with a five or six-card diamond suit and be left in 1NT.
   

There are no easy solutions.

 

 

Lol B I dont think your partner can do your 1 without Director being called :rolleyes:

[nige1]

. With a singleton red, open with suit below singleton

. With a black, open with suit in the middle

Yes, that is the most common approach. In the latest EBU magazine one of the authors (was it Mike Byrne?) recommended opening 1♣ with a singleton hearts, though.

Excellent advice, IMO

[steve2005]

You are right that most Acol literature recommends opening 1H and rebidding 1D. But you need to be aware that you are compromising a very valuable part of the modern Acol system: bidding two suits promises a five-card holding in the first suit.

Several things can go wrong when you open 1H:

1. Partner might respond 1C then jump to 4H with a three-card suit, expecting you to have five.
2. Partner might respond 2C then give you false preference back to hearts on a two-card suit.
3. Partner might respond 1NT on a 6-9 point hand with a five or six-card diamond suit and be left in 1NT.

There are no easy solutions.

 

After a 2/1 you are not promising a 5-card suit it's just very likely.

 

After 1♥-2♣-2♦

 

As to 2) If partner is thinking of making a false preference with 2♥ in this auction after a 2/1 they have a balanced hand possibly with 6♣ and usually the strength for a 2N rebid but lack a ♠ stopper. The solution is not to make a false preference but to use 2♠ fourth suit forcing for 1 round. If your playing American style of FSF being GF then you may get stuck in a 4-2 fit but when I play Acol I use FSF 1 rd force.

 

If you have less the INV strength 2♥ and 6♣ either rebid 3♣ or respond 1N not 2♣

 

 

[mike777]

kindly suggest passing in first or second seat or wk nt if you strongly believe passing with 13 and this shape will hurt you.

 

many suggest passing with 12 is fine

I agree with 14 1nt is fine.

---

 

 

we have reached a borderline debate...:)

[PhilG007]

Playing Acol weak no trump what do I open with this hand and why?

Spades AQ76

Hearts KJ32

Diamonds K874

Clubs 9

 

If I bid 1 Diamond and partner responds 2 Clubs I am too weak for 2NT.

If I bid 1 Heart and partner responds 2 Clubs then a rebid of 2 Diamonds shows five hearts. Which lie is the least bad? Or should I pass?

 

When you have a 4-4-4-1 hand,if the three 4 card suits are 'touching' i.e. in sequence,you should open the middle one first

If they are not 'touching',you should open the cheapest one first. It's true that opening 1

♥then rebidding 2♦should show 5 cards in hearts but the bidding system hasn't been invented that

covers all the eventualities. Sometimes you have to tell a white lie :)