How optional is this double?

[helene_t]

Matchpoints, love all.

____Pd______Me__

1♠__P___1NT_P___

P___2♦__P___P___

2♥__P___2♠__dbl?

According to the LOTT, the double says "pass if there are 15 total trumps and take out if there are 16".

 

I had a 4333 with 14 HCPs. Opps are playing 4-card majors which increases the probability that they have a 5-3 fit. P probably has 5 diamonds since he could have overcalled 3♦ with a decent 6-card. I thought that defending 2♠ undoubled would be bad and if I doubled partner would expect only 3 spades, so I might just as well bid 3♦ myself, offering a slight hope of pushing them to 3♠. This was the worng decision as neither 2♠ nor 3♦ was makeable.

 

So my question is: how many spades do you expect me to have if I double?

[mike777]

Without special agreements is not X here for penalty not balance, often showing 4 or more?

[hotShot]

"Common sence" ist often not so common .....

 

I think X after 2♠ is for penalty.

Your first pass, showed a hand without a 2 level bid,

your second pass showed no interest in bidding game.

 

It is not sure that opps have a 8 card fit. How would bidding go, if opps hold:

5413 opposite of 2245

 

The 2♦ bid, your partner made, was made using your HCP strength.

If he had been strong enough to bid 2♦ on his own, he should have done so, the first chance he got.

That's why you can't raise his bid, because you don't know how much of your strength you partner is using.

You are left with the decision to pass or dbl. And I guess, dbl will be more succesfull if you hold 4♠.

[Walddk]

Clear penalty double. You should have 4 spades, even a good 4-card suit, because you are sitting under the spade suit. You have been out of the bidding until now because you had too many spades, but a good hand (at least 14 hcp).

 

Your partner also knows that you have a good hand, and his 2♦ was based upon that. Now the decision is up to you. Do you want to let them play 2♠ undoubled, 2♠ doubled, or do you prefer to raise to 3♦. If 3♦ makes, 2♠ is likely to go down, so 3♦ is not an option for me.

 

I would double at pairs and pass at IMPs, provided that I have the hand I think you should have: relatively balanced, 4 spades, at least 14 hcp. The more diamonds you have, the stronger you must be.

 

If 2♠X makes, oh well, it won't be my first bottom. Then 3♦ will surely go down, maybe even 2, and -300 wouldn't have been better.

 

Was there a problem with your spade holding perhaps? I do not double with any 4-card suit. It must be very good, because your spade suit is positionally wrong for the defence. There is nothing optional about your double, however. Partner must pass now.

 

 

Roland

[pclayton]

In answer to your question - the double isn't really purely peNalty.

 

As a matter of fact, I can see an argument on general terms that this double should be TAKEOUT.

 

Our general agreements are that doubles through 2S are just this. Why can't you hold a 2425 and a 10 count? Here, pard has the spade stack (and he can see that) and will know what you are doing.

 

Perhaps another "pard can figure it out looking at his hand" double.

[TimG]

Why can't you hold a 2425 and a 10 count?

Because you wouldn't want to step into the auction with that hand.

[han]

I play that doubles are not for penalty unless they clearly are. We have 9 rules for when the double is clearly for penalty, and this auction is one of them (the opponents stop bidding, we balance, and they bid again). So the double is penalty, expect 4 very good spades.

 

I cannot think of a possible hand where partner would pull the double. With a weak hand and very long diamonds partner would have bid 3D the first time around. Partner should not be thinking about LOTT as he has no idea of what our shape is.

[TimG]

I play that doubles are not for penalty unless they clearly are. We have 9 rules for when the double is clearly for penalty, and this auction is one of them (the opponents stop bidding, we balance, and they bid again).

It's great to have rules for these situations. Care to share your 9 with the rest of us? (Perhaps in a new thread.)

[luke warm]

i expect you to have 4 spades, and i would play the x as penalty...

[whereagles]

In general, when our side gives the opponents a free ride and then balances their part-score, we do so to push them one level higher. Subsequent doubles should simply mean the strategy worked and are therefore probably best used as penalty.

 

Of course "penalty" doesn't mean you always hold KQJT9 of trumps, but sure have points.

[joker_gib]

Penalty for me ! :)

[Chamaco]

I agree with the penalty meaning of the double.

 

As far as the trump holding goes, in this sequence I think it's not a matter of trump length but generally speaking of tricks, so I'd say that the doubler needs more ore less 2+ trump tricks and 3 side tricks, not located in diamonds (the suit bid by p, otherwise our diamond trick may be ruffed).

 

Usually, of course, this will correspond to spade length, but it may be as well a 18-19 balanced hand offshape for a first round t/o double.

 

Possible holdings:

 

QJTx- AQxx-xx- AQxx

AKx- KQJ-xx- AQxxx

[helene_t]

Tx for all your comments. I realize I should have doubled.

 

However, I'm a strong believer in the LOTT and I think partner should be able to make an informed decision. I don't like the agreement "penalty" except in situations where doubler is 100% captain or at (much) higher levels than 2♠. I think dbl should ask partner to pass with a doubleton spades, in principle.

[Walddk]

However, I'm a strong believer in the LOTT

I recommend that you read "I Fought The Law of Total Tricks" by Mike Lawrence and Anders Wirgren. That may make you change your mind about LOTT. Anyway, I think that "Law" has been wildly exaggerated for much too long.

 

Roland

[Flame]

I dont understand how are you going to implememnt the lott here, if think only mean partner should take the double out when he has spade shortness then its not Lott its just normal penalty double, but if partner suppose to know how good is your fit then i dont see how can he know u have 3 diamonds and 4 clubs when you could have 23 of them.

and why is partner suppse to know you have 4 spades ? why is it less logical to do this Lott double with 3 spades telling partner to pull out with 2 and leave it with 3 ?

I like the concept of Lott but i would call this a penalty double and like other penalty double partner has the right to take them out.

I know i might have said exactly what you did, just think its important to call this a penalty double which partner can pull when he think its right according to the lott, and not just a lott double cause partner wont know what that mean.

[helene_t]

Allright Flame, maybe I'm wrong about the terminology and should call this a penalty double. My point is that with a 6412 (and probaby also with a 5422) I should pass since partner is expected to pull a double.

[Flame]

Allright Flame, maybe I'm wrong about the terminology and should call this a penalty double. My point is that with a 6412 (and probaby also with a 5422) I should pass since partner is expected to pull a double.

I agree, yes we share the same philosofy, as long as you are talking about mp only.