Stephen Tu Posted April 19, 2015 Report Share Posted April 19, 2015 [hv=pc=n&s=sakq54hjdjt652caj&d=n&v=b&b=13&a=1s2hdp?]133|200[/hv] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyberyeti Posted April 19, 2015 Report Share Posted April 19, 2015 Playing standardish methods I think I'd bid 3♥ then 4♦. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr1303 Posted April 19, 2015 Report Share Posted April 19, 2015 3H. I need to keep 3NT in the picture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgoetze Posted April 19, 2015 Report Share Posted April 19, 2015 3H. I need to keep 3NT in the picture.I guess it would help to know whether we are playing MPs or IMPs... in the latter case I do believe I would pull 3NT to 4♦. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nige1 Posted April 19, 2015 Report Share Posted April 19, 2015 [hv=pc=n&s=sakq54hjdjt652caj&d=n&v=b&b=13&a=1s2hdp?]133|200[/hv] IMO 4♦ = 10, 3♥ = 9, 5♦ = 7, 4♥ = 3. A jump to the four-level in ♦ accords with your slam aspirations and describes your hand well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyberyeti Posted April 19, 2015 Report Share Posted April 19, 2015 3H. I need to keep 3NT in the picture. Might depend on your agreement what 2N first time means in this sequence, I think a lot of the time you want to be in 3N partner will not have doubled. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhantomSac Posted April 20, 2015 Report Share Posted April 20, 2015 I would not be willing to play in 3N for better or for worse. 3H then 4D "feels" like a better way to bid the hand but I'm not sure why, just in general I think 4D sounds more like extreme shape/concentration and 3H then 4D sounds more like a strong hand. But I cannot say I have an agreement about the difference in 3H>4D compared to 4D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Tu Posted April 20, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 20, 2015 For those choosing 4♦, what bid should partner use to find out if you have a heart control? If you bid 3♥ followed by 4♦, should that promise heart control or just show a good hand? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted April 20, 2015 Report Share Posted April 20, 2015 I would not be willing to play in 3N for better or for worse. 3H then 4D "feels" like a better way to bid the hand but I'm not sure why, just in general I think 4D sounds more like extreme shape/concentration and 3H then 4D sounds more like a strong hand. But I cannot say I have an agreement about the difference in 3H>4D compared to 4D. I don't have an agreement either, but I'd feel a lot better about driving to slam if partner happens to skip 3N. If I start with 4♦, I don't have a clue about what kind of heart duplication is across. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WesleyC Posted April 20, 2015 Report Share Posted April 20, 2015 3H followed by 4D/(or maybe 4H). I think this shows serious slam interest and invites partner to bid 4H (kickback). For me a jump to 4D would be consistent with [AKQxx --- QTxxxx xx] or similar - big distribution rather than slam interest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeh Posted April 20, 2015 Report Share Posted April 20, 2015 Put me in with the 3♥ followed by 4♦. If Justin doesn't have any agreement in his partnerships, as to this or an immediate 4♦, then it will be no surprise to learn that few do :D To me, 4♦ sounds weaker, while 3♥ then (if possible) 4♦ is a powerful slam try, which is what I have. Note that if partner has AQxx in diamonds, the finesse is much better than 50% on the auction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveMoe Posted April 21, 2015 Report Share Posted April 21, 2015 Surprised to see 4♥ MIA. That's my choice. Splinter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhantomSac Posted April 21, 2015 Report Share Posted April 21, 2015 Surprised to see 4♥ MIA. That's my choice. Splinter. Auto splinter in spades? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike777 Posted April 21, 2015 Report Share Posted April 21, 2015 3dno problem yet slam is possible--- 3d not an option? again I choose 3d as slam option. come on guys....3d slam open.---- I openpard xI bid new suit this Is not weak./-- with crap I do not open or rebid majorI limit my opener Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilKing Posted April 21, 2015 Report Share Posted April 21, 2015 3dno problem yet slam is possible--- 3d not an option? again I choose 3d as slam option. come on guys....3d slam open.---- I openpard xI bid new suit this Is not weak./-- with crap I do not open or rebid majorI limit my opener 3♦ is weak. I mean, what would you bid on: ♠Axxxx♥xx♦AKJx♣xx If you bid 2♠, no one will understand or sympathise. Partners double indicates the minors so we bid 3♦, "limiting our hand". And if we have a strong hand, we simply make a strong bid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gszes Posted April 21, 2015 Report Share Posted April 21, 2015 3dno problem yet slam is possible--- 3d not an option? again I choose 3d as slam option. come on guys....3d slam open.---- I openpard xI bid new suit this Is not weak./-- with crap I do not open or rebid majorI limit my opener The analysis is sort of correct but dia is NOT a new suit. Responder has already implied dia and a 3d bid is taking a mere preference with a sort of min hand and nothing better to do. 3d does not even guarantee dia support for ex you hold KJxxx xxx AKx Qx. What can you do besides bid 3d over the x? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gszes Posted April 21, 2015 Report Share Posted April 21, 2015 4h splinter Yes indeed it may be possible for 4h to be a self splinter for spades but that makes no difference because the spade suit needs to be no loser and opener can correct any minor to spades. It is a ton more flexible to assume there is a club fit (opener can correct to dia/spa if needed) and go from there. Opener also had a 3s (forcing) bid available if they had doubts about the spade suit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeh Posted April 21, 2015 Report Share Posted April 21, 2015 4♥ is insane. I'd like to be kind, but a splinter made before and without agreeing trump is truly insane. Just how the heck is partner going to be able to work out wtf is going on? When and at what level are we planning on trying to find diamonds? Say he bids 4♠ now. I think most would agree that this is suggesting we play in spades, but I don't think it matters. We now bid 5♦. What is this? Do we hold AKQxxxx x AJx Qx or are we showing diamonds? If so, how good are our diamonds? It is a cardinal rule of cue-bidding or splintering that the partnership knows what suit is trump. Splintering is often a way to establish that, and is a very powerful tool precisely because it conveys a lot of information: information that partner will use to guide his or her decision-making. It is batshit crazy to splinter then try to set trump later. Moreover, and this really is redundant. wtf is wrong with a simple cuebid then diamonds? What is it that makes that space-saving, information sharing strategy inferior to the master-mind call of splintering and then making partner work out that we hold 5 diamonds, with zero room to investigate whether our hands mesh for slam, grand slam, or game? 4♥ can be used as a splinter, but it has to set trump at the same time, and by necessary implication it shows long, very good, spades. That hand ain't this hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Tu Posted April 21, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 21, 2015 Why does 4♥ have to be spades? Can't it be used to say "I have heart splinter and big fit for one of your minors", with the long very good spades hands bidding 3♥ followed by 4♠ instead? Or maybe 3♠ if it's forcing (should it be assumed forcing without discussion?) Moreover, and this really is redundant. wtf is wrong with a simple cuebid then diamonds? What is it that makes that space-saving, information sharing strategy inferior to the master-mind call of splintering and then making partner work out that we hold 5 diamonds, with zero room to investigate whether our hands mesh for slam, grand slam, or game? To me, the main questions are:Does 3♥ followed by 4♦ promise heart control? If it doesn't, what does one bid with say AKQxx xx AJxxx K or similar? If it does, over 4♦, how does responder proceed, if cue bidding 4♥ shows heart control, how do you ask for heart control instead? Resolving these issues to me is a possible justification for using 4♥ as spl for one of the minors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeh Posted April 21, 2015 Report Share Posted April 21, 2015 Why does 4♥ have to be spades? Can't it be used to say "I have heart splinter and big fit for one of your minors", with the long very good spades hands bidding 3♥ followed by 4♠ instead? Or maybe 3♠ if it's forcing (should it be assumed forcing without discussion?) To me, the main questions are:Does 3♥ followed by 4♦ promise heart control? If it doesn't, what does one bid with say AKQxx xx AJxxx K or similar? If it does, over 4♦, how does responder proceed, if cue bidding 4♥ shows heart control, how do you ask for heart control instead? Resolving these issues to me is a possible justification for using 4♥ as spl for one of the minors.There are ways of handling the problem you identify, but to explicate them here would require long post. I can say that life is far easier on these auctions if, after we have 4-level minor suit agreement, we don't use keycard.....use 4N as a forward-going hand with no cue available. Along with LTCC, life works out pretty well. More importantly, even if I were to concede that, in the absence of special agreements, the 3♥ then 4♦ sequence can lead to ambiguity, which I think is fair, that is not at all saying that the solution is to use 4♥ as some sort of 3-way splinter, trumps to be announced later! Any problem with the heart suit pales in comparison to the problems that arise after a splinter...yes...on a good day all can work out well, but on a bad day one creates insoluble problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Tu Posted April 21, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 21, 2015 There are ways of handling the problem you identify, but to explicate them here would require long post. I can say that life is far easier on these auctions if, after we have 4-level minor suit agreement, we don't use keycard.....use 4N as a forward-going hand with no cue available. Along with LTCC, life works out pretty well. More importantly, even if I were to concede that, in the absence of special agreements, the 3♥ then 4♦ sequence can lead to ambiguity, which I think is fair, that is not at all saying that the solution is to use 4♥ as some sort of 3-way splinter, trumps to be announced later! Any problem with the heart suit pales in comparison to the problems that arise after a splinter...yes...on a good day all can work out well, but on a bad day one creates insoluble problems. I wasn't proposing it as 3-way splinter, more 2-way splinter. But I think even 3-way splinter could work in principle. Suppose:1. Responder bid 4♠ with wastage/bad hand for slam. Obv opener can then just pass/correct to trump suit?2. With good hand for slam, responder could accept using six-keycard (both minors) responses or something like that (presumably SKQ aren't relevant since opener will be looking at them with the spade auto-spl). Opener could then place contract.You would lose cue specificity, responder being able to show an ace/K in one suit rather than another. Maybe grand bidding would suffer some, but to me the decision between game/small slam is way more important & frequent than small vs. grand. What "insoluble problems" did you have in mind? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrAce Posted April 21, 2015 Report Share Posted April 21, 2015 What "insoluble problems" did you have in mind? He can start listing, but I doubt he can finish any time this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Tu Posted April 21, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 21, 2015 He can start listing, but I doubt he can finish any time this year. I'd be satisfied with one insoluble problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrAce Posted April 22, 2015 Report Share Posted April 22, 2015 I'd be satisfied with one insoluble problem. Oh you need just one? [hv=d=n&v=n&b=5&a=1s2h4h5h]133|100[/hv] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Tu Posted April 22, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 22, 2015 ?? That's an entirely different auction. I'm not saying splinters in general without suit agreed, I'm talking about my original auction specifically. For your auction it would be totally silly to play that since you have many more lower sequences available, and only one person has begun describing shape at all, there's no guarantee of any sort of fit if responder has minors. On my auction, the double hand is better defined, and there are multiple other options to show spade only hands, so opener can splinter only with hands where he knows which suit he ultimately wants to select, and just needs some help judging how high to go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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