Three weeks until the election

[Cyberyeti]

Immigration in the UK has a particular problem in that a lot of the immigrants are from cultures that have views on women that are fundamentally incompatible with a modern western society, that were part of our empire, Afghanistan, Kashmir and some parts of Africa (FGM) have particular issues. The Eastern Europeans are much less of a problem in that they want to learn English because most of them want to do business with the locals.

 

There are areas which are almost exclusively south asian immigrant, where particularly the women who came into the country later than school age don't always learn English and are pretty much kept closeted away at home.

 

I'm not quite sure what we can do about this.

[Aberlour10]

Cameron's actual try to re-negotiate several European treaties is like riding a dead horse. They tell him this everywhere in Europe, but he seems not to belive its a hard reality = eat it or leave it.

[Trinidad]

Cameron's actual try to re-negotiate several European treaties is like riding a dead horse. They tell him this everywhere in Europe, but he seems not to belive its a hard reality = eat it or leave it.

He probably thinks: "If Thatcher could do it, I can do it too.".

 

Rik

[NickRW]

...So here is what is ridiculous about UK immigration policy: the previous government promised to deliver on a target of "not more than x number of immigrations per year" (I think at some point Cameron made this pledge with x = 100000). That's a ridiculous promise to make, since they had no way of preventing legal EU immigration. So they tried to make up for it by trying to reduce numbers elsewhere at any cost with ridiculous practices. Examples:...

 

 

OK. Now I get where you're coming from. Yes, I agree that the pledges that the UK government has made for immigration are completely undeliverable due to membership of the EU. It is up for grabs whether we will continue with this.

[Trinidad]

OK. Now I get where you're coming from. Yes, I agree that the pledges that the UK government has made for immigration are completely undeliverable due to membership of the EU. It is up for grabs whether we will continue with this.

The UK is part of the world. That comes with benefits and drawbacks. You cannot keep the drawbacks out without giving up on the benefits.

 

Rik

[kenberg]

The following occured to me while having my morning coffee: To what extent would a UK withdrawal from the EU be comparble to the French withdrawal from NATO in 1966? (Yes, of course I had to look up the date.)

 

The French withdrawal was upsetting, at least to the US, but everyone survived it. Anyway it was only temporary (43 years).

 

Often my views tend toward the simplistic. We have common interests, surely we can work things out. So my hopes run toward the UK remaining in a successful EU. But maybe this won't be the case. Ultimately, neither the UK nor the EU will be asking me.

[helene_t]

France's withdrawal from NATO probably didn't affect many people's daily life other then those who worked for the French military, as long as Nato wasn't at war. By the way, France continued to participate in civilian aspects of NATO.

 

UK's withdrawal from EU may, depending on the exact terms of conditions, have impact on huge amount of people's daily life. Work, comsumer products, traveling, etc.

[Vampyr]

Cameron's actual try to re-negotiate several European treaties is like riding a dead horse. They tell him this everywhere in Europe, but he seems not to belive its a hard reality = eat it or leave it.

 

You might be surprised. I think that the EU will make considerable concessions when they realise Cameron is not bluffing (if, in fact, he is not LOL).

[NickRW]

So my hopes run toward the UK remaining in a successful EU.

 

Well, who wouldn't want to be part of a successful club? The question is whether it really is successful or not. Sure, like most democracies, it bumbles through somehow, but...

[Aberlour10]

You might be surprised. I think that the EU will make considerable concessions when they realise Cameron is not bluffing (if, in fact, he is not LOL).

 

I don't think so. Any significant concessions for sure. If they would start with this ( Treaty of Lisbon etc etc)... more countries would come with their own wiishes..

 

The times in which screams like " I want my money back" worked in Brussels are gone.

 

 

 

[mike777]

Immigration in the UK has a particular problem in that a lot of the immigrants are from cultures that have views on women that are fundamentally incompatible with a modern western society, that were part of our empire, Afghanistan, Kashmir and some parts of Africa (FGM) have particular issues. The Eastern Europeans are much less of a problem in that they want to learn English because most of them want to do business with the locals.

 

There are areas which are almost exclusively south asian immigrant, where particularly the women who came into the country later than school age don't always learn English and are pretty much kept closeted away at home.

 

I'm not quite sure what we can do about this.

 

focus on their kids and grandkids when it comes to language and culture.

immigrants that are older are pretty much set unless self motivated.

 

don't aim for perfection, try to change what we have the power and influence to change..

 

government can nudge and then we hope. expect failure often :)

 

-----------

 

to be honest looking at the UK and immigration issues from thousands of miles away, the UK seems to have a pretty darn good track record compared to history of the world.

[Trinidad]

The following occured to me while having my morning coffee: To what extent would a UK withdrawal from the EU be comparble to the French withdrawal from NATO in 1966?

It is the same as with any friend leaving a group of friends. The group of friends will go on, perhaps saddened by the decision of the lost friend. The impact (whether positive or negative) on the leaving friend will be much larger.

 

But if the UK wants to be alone, the other countries won't stop them. They tried to stop the UK when they threatened to leave in the 1908s, out of Pan-European idealism, but they won't do that now.

 

Rik

[Trinidad]

You might be surprised. I think that the EU will make considerable concessions when they realise Cameron is not bluffing (if, in fact, he is not LOL).

I think the surprise is on the UK. They will find out that there isn't that much sympathy in the EU for the UK.

 

In the 1980's Thatcher negotiated an exception for the UK. The UK needed to pay considerably less to the EC than it normally should have. This happened at a time where the rest of Europe was filled with Pan-European idealism. They didn't understand why the UK was so hesitant about the EC. The Europeans considered the UK disloyal and difficult. But the way to sell it in Europe was:

 

• We want to keep everybody in the club.
  
• The UK is having economic difficulties.
  
• The mining regions need our particular support after the closing of the mines.
  
• We need to help a friend in need.
  

And Thatcher got the deal she wanted. (This exception has existed for decades and has been lifted fairly recently.)

 

Now, the sentiment is rather different:

• There is hardly anything left of the Pan-European ideal.
  
• The UK has basically been disloyal and difficult towards Europe since Thatcher. It has not behaved like a friend of Europe. (In fact, it isn't a friend of Europe.)
  
• The UK is doing well economically, it doesn't need any help.
  

So, the European sentiment is: "If you don't like us, well then don't play with us."

 

Rik

[mike777]

Sympathy or sentiment should play zero role in decision.

 

It is in the UK's national interest to stay in the EU or drop out.

 

I understand even if they drop out they can still have some benefits such as Norway has.

 

I note this whole EU thing started as a protection racket for the coal and steel companies and workers. Crony capitalism

"The EU traces its origins from the European Coal and Steel Community (ECSC)"

[Cyberyeti]

(Views not necessarily mine, but summing up what I see as a more general perception)

 

There never has been a pan-european ideal in the UK and this was never sold to us, it was introduced by stealth. Britain has never wanted any of the political union, we joined an economic community, and that's what we want to be in. There is a strong island mentality that means we have fought tooth and nail for our independence, and don't want to give it away to Eurocrats.

 

There have then been a series of rulings from the European courts seen as perverse over here (inability to deport criminals for reasons seen as silly, giving prisoners the vote in the face of overwhelming opposition from parliament and people etc), and we want to take back the ability to make those decisions here. Many people wrongly connect the ECHR and the EU.

 

Our fish reserves have been plundered by Spanish trawlers that buy British quotas, ignore the net regulations and go back to Spain rather than landing their catches here, killing the British fishing industry.

 

There is a feeling that if something is law in the EU, we observe the regs but other countries just ignore them when it suits them.

[mike777]

(Views not necessarily mine, but summing up what I see as a more general perception)

 

There never has been a pan-european ideal in the UK and this was never sold to us, it was introduced by stealth. Britain has never wanted any of the political union, we joined an economic community, and that's what we want to be in. There is a strong island mentality that means we have fought tooth and nail for our independence, and don't want to give it away to Eurocrats.

 

There have then been a series of rulings from the European courts seen as perverse over here (inability to deport criminals for reasons seen as silly, giving prisoners the vote in the face of overwhelming opposition from parliament and people etc), and we want to take back the ability to make those decisions here. Many people wrongly connect the ECHR and the EU.

 

Our fish reserves have been plundered by Spanish trawlers that buy British quotas, ignore the net regulations and go back to Spain rather than landing their catches here, killing the British fishing industry.

 

There is a feeling that if something is law in the EU, we observe the regs but other countries just ignore them when it suits them.

 

So are you in or out or sort of in such as Norway?

[Cyberyeti]

So are you in or out or sort of in such as Norway?

 

For me, if there is no productive renegociation, out or sort of in. If there is decent renegociation, in.

 

What I think will happen is that Cameron will get something, but not so little or so much that it's clear what he should do next, and the Conservative party will implode. What happens next will be anybody's guess.

[nige1]

There never has been a pan-european ideal in the UK and this was never sold to us, it was introduced by stealth. Britain has never wanted any of the political union, we joined an economic community, and that's what we want to be in. There is a strong island mentality that means we have fought tooth and nail for our independence, and don't want to give it away to Eurocrats.

It's amusing that Margaret Thatcher and subsequent prime-ministers justified their attitude to Europe, as protecting our sovereignty. Since when, we've privatized transport, communications (telephone and post), power (nuclear, electric, gas and oil) and information technology to foreign and off-sure companies. Many vital strategic military functions have been outsourced to foreign companies. Almost all the money spent outsourcing health and information technology was wasted. Private finance initiatives have been a disaster, except to government cronies who were given national assets for a penny in the pound. Europe has little to teach us about corruption. Although I'm told the USA is worse :)

 

 

 

[mike777]

It's amusing that Margaret Thatcher and subsequent prime-ministers justified their attitude to Europe, as protecting our sovereignty. Since when, we've privatized transport, communications (telephone and post), power (nuclear, electric, gas and oil) and information technology to foreign and off-sure companies. Many vital strategic military functions have been outsourced to foreign companies. Almost all the money spent outsourcing health and information technology was wasted. Private finance initiatives have been a disaster, except to government cronies who were given national assets for a penny in the pound. Europe has little to teach us about corruption. Although I'm told the USA is worse :)

 

So I am unclear

 

You are in favor of staying in the EU or dropping out?

[mike777]

For me, if there is no productive renegociation, out or sort of in. If there is decent renegociation, in.

 

What I think will happen is that Cameron will get something, but not so little or so much that it's clear what he should do next, and the Conservative party will implode. What happens next will be anybody's guess.

 

ok it seems you have all 3 options open.

[Vampyr]

I will be content to stay in the EU if Cameron gets our fisheries back. I recently wrote him to inform him that this will be a make-or-break issue for many Britons. I will post when I get a reply.

[mike777]

I will be content to stay in the EU if Cameron gets our fisheries back. I recently wrote him to inform him that this will be a make-or-break issue for many Britons. I will post when I get a reply.

 

 

do not know all the details in that issue...but I thought you have the fisheries...just no one(outside fishers) cares...

If you cannot protect them....I doubt anyone else will care.

---

 

again I don't know the issue as well as you do but how does dropping out of the EU increase protection of the fisheries?

[Vampyr]

Did you see the comment about the Spanish trawlers? They would not have access if we left the EU.

 

I am not a fisherman, but this issue has been a big deal for me for many years.

[mike777]

Did you see the comment about the Spanish trawlers? They would not have access if left the EU.

 

I am not a fisherman, but this issue has been a big deal for me for many years.

 

sorry but your logic makes zero sense.

 

they have all the access.

 

Again how will the UK leaving the EU stop them from taking fish?

 

If the UK cannot or will not stop them who will?

--------------

 

again I only know the facts you present.

[Vampyr]

sorry but your logic makes zero sense.

 

they have all the access.

 

Again how will the UK leaving the EU stop them from taking fish?

 

If the UK cannot or will not stop them who will?

--------------

 

again I only know the facts you present.

 

The UK cannot stop the Spanish trawlers, as the UK fisheries belong to the EU now. If the UK leave the EU, others will not have access. They would be arrested for fishing in UK territorial waters. Do you finally understand?