negative double

[Flame]

What do you understand from this bid

1♦ (3♥) D (P)

4♥ (P) 5♣ (P)

5♠ (P) 5NT

 

I was the responder what do you think i had ?

[mike777]

4135 With great clubs. maybe 6 clubs

5NT=pick a slam

[HeartA]

6+♣, 3♦, 10- HCP

[Flame]

Both of you think i have clubs and diamonds, the different is the spade, so who think Double of 3H must contain 4 cards spade suit ?

[mike777]

True, you may have AKX of spades, may help If I was allowed to look at my hand.

[Flame]

This is what i had

[hv=s=s10h72dq1087ckqj762]133|100|[/hv]

Its true that my diamonds are pretty good, but partner can still hold only 3 of them for his 1 diamond opening. The real question is wather my double gurentee spades, or are there other options like a one suiter club suit not strong enough for imidiate 4c or a club diamond hand like i thought i had? (6 clubs and Hxx diamonds seems classic)

The hand had a funny ressult, partner passed when we have an easy 6 on any minor.

west lead a small heart from Qxx, east had AKJ10xxx took the ace and the K and switched to spade so i claimed 11 tricks and got 9.5 imps because many did 4h on their side.

[the hog]

Flame, I think this depends on your agreements. We play that ANY action over a 3 level jump by opps is a gf. I must admit, I would have passed with your hand.

[mike777]

me too.

 

After:

1D=3H=P=4H

P=P=4NT(ME)

[HeartA]

This is what i had

[hv=s=s10h72dq1087ckqj762]133|100|[/hv]

Its true that my diamonds are pretty good, but partner can still hold only 3 of them for his 1 diamond opening. The real question is wather my double gurentee spades, or are there other options like a one suiter club suit not strong enough for imidiate 4c or a club diamond hand like i thought i had? (6 clubs and Hxx diamonds seems classic)

The hand had a funny ressult, partner passed when we have an easy 6 on any minor.

west lead a small heart from Qxx, east had AKJ10xxx took the ace and the K and switched to spade so i claimed 11 tricks and got 9.5 imps because many did 4h on their side.

I was very close. From the bidding, pd couldn't have 4 ♥s, so he must have 4+ ♦s. (1♦ opening with 3♦s only when 4=4=3=2). When you have 4+ ♦s, directly bid 6♦, don't make pd guess.

[joker_gib]

Flame, I think this depends on your agreements. We play that ANY action over a 3 level jump by opps is a gf. I must admit, I would have passed with your hand.

3♥ is definitely too high for me to take any action with this hand.

 

This is a clear pass for me too ! :)

[Walddk]

Double should indeed show spades (4 unlimited, 5 with 8-10 hcp). You have many other bids available as natural: 3♠, 3NT, 4♣(F), 4♦ (NF). Your hand is a borderline case. With 2-1 in the majors I would have risked 4♣, but as it was I think pass is best.

 

Your partner needs lots of extras for game to make, and if he has, he will bid again. Then 4NT (longer clubs than diamonds) becomes an option. The same goes for 4NT after LHO raises to 4♥, passed to you.

 

Roland

[luke warm]

i think a negative double should show what it promises to show... this one should show 4+ spades with maybe clubs, not 4+ clubs with maybe spades...

 

this is assuming you don't play nfb, when the neg dbl can be any game force

[TimG]

This is what i had

[hv=s=s10h72dq1087ckqj762]133|100|[/hv]

Youcan't have this hand because you would have bid 4N over 4H to offer partner a choice of minor suit contracts (showing the extra diamond in the process).

[Flame]

Thx everyone

After a the hand i had a talk with my partner and i agreed with his claim that im trying to be too creative. Oviously i didnt feel good about doubling but i also felt i must do something to show partner i got a good hand, it would be easier for me to pass, and i guess easy is sometimes right.

[inquiry]

Thx everyone

After a the hand i had a talk with my partner and i agreed with his claim that im trying to be too creative. Oviously i didnt feel good about doubling but i also felt i must do something to show partner i got a good hand, it would be easier for me to pass, and i guess easy is sometimes right.

You also might consider playing fit non-jumps here, where 4♣ shows clubs and diamonds, and is not forcing beyond the four level. I am not saying this is best or even necessarily good, just no one mentioned it.

 

Ben

[HeartA]

Without NFB, and negative dbls can only show majors, I found the logic are beyond my comprehension. Do we have 4 suits or have two majors only? On the other thread, who to blame (2), while we had 5♦, I was told I should pass. On this hand, Flame was told to keep quiet while they had slam.

 

Bridge became weird...

[Walddk]

Without NFB, and negative dbls can only show majors, I found the logic are beyond my comprehension. Do we have 4 suits or have two majors only? On the other thread, who to blame (2), while we had 5♦, I was told I should pass. On this hand, Flame was told to keep quiet while they had slam.

 

Bridge became weird...

Correct, we have excatly 1 major when opps have bid hearts. That is what our negative double shows. Some play that it shows both unbid suits, i.e. spades and clubs. What it does not show, however, is clubs and a fit for diamonds.

 

You are welcome to have that agreement with your partner of course, but then you need another for when you have spades. If you haven't, opener will keep correcting to spades if he has a fit, no matter how hard you try to sign off in diamonds.

 

Roland

[inquiry]

Without NFB, and negative dbls can only show majors, I found the logic are beyond my comprehension.  Do we have 4 suits or have two majors only?  On the other thread, who to blame (2), while we had 5♦, I was told I should pass.  On this hand, Flame was told to keep quiet while they had slam.

 

Bridge became weird...

There are some similarities, and some huge differences between the two hands.. Here is the current one.. (lets call it "A")

[hv=s=s10h72dq1087ckqj762]133|100|

1♦ (3♥) D (P)

4♥ (P) 5♣ (P)

5♠ (P) 5NT

[/hv]

Here is the one from the other thread, let's call it "B"

[hv=d=n&v=e&n=sajt9h5daj8cqj952&s=sk65hj76dqt963ca7]133|200|Scoring: IMP

Bidding (Without NFB):

N E S W

1♣ 1♥ dbl 2♥

2♠ pass 3♦ 3♥

4♠ all pass[/hv]

 

I will start with "B". Actually I like to bid 1♠ over 1♥ when holding 4+♠, so my doble here describes just the hand actully held. Diamonds. I understand that from odd reason this is neither standard nor very widely played. If double has to show four or less spades rather than 3 or less, fine, so be it. Let's go with that. In that case, I would probably bid 1NT without a stopper. I have bid worse. When partner runs to 2C, I will try 2D. But, if I did double, and if partner did bid only 2♠, why am I bidding again? Look how easy this is if the initial double shows diamonds. You find diamond fit immediately, and you can make a game try by raising diamonds.

 

On hand "A". You simply can not make a negative double with this hand. If partner jumps in spades, you are forced to 5m when he may have wasted spade values... and RHO doesn't have spades and you don't have spades, is there any doubt in your mind your partner is going to bid spades if you double? The majority has spoken that dbl here promises 4 spades. I am not as certain, but the is, your partner is likely to bid spades EVEN WHEN HE HAS ONLY three spades. The higher the takeout double, the more shape specific it is. It will be next to impossible to play exaclty 4D if you start with a double.. .and if your partner bids 3NT. 4D would surely be forcing. I see you have two choices with this hand. Pass, and hope partner can reopen, or bid something that shows diamonds. I have a "novel" bid here, I will bid 4♦ at some forms of the game and some vulnerabilities. If you play 4♣ as a fit non-jump, that is an ok (but stretch) too. Might I play in a 4-3 fit if I bid 4♦? Yes. But pass is too wimpy as you could miss game opposite hands where partner can not balance back in.

[HeartA]

Correct, we have excatly 1 major when opps have bid hearts. That is what our negative double shows. Some play that it shows both unbid suits, i.e. spades and clubs. What it does not show, however, is clubs and a fit for diamonds.

 

You are welcome to have that agreement with your partner of course, but then you need another for when you have spades. If you haven't, opener will keep correcting to spades if he has a fit, no matter how hard you try to sign off in diamonds.

 

Roland

My concept (or modification) of negative dbl is to show unbid suit(s) when NFB is not available. If I bid a new suit (minor) after dbl, it denies the unbid (other) major.

 

I agree that it show not a hand of clubs and a fit for diamonds. That's why I guessed Flame hand of exactly 3 ♦s.

 

My version of negative dbl is similar to 1NT without intervention:

1♠ - 1NT

2♥ - 3♣

shows a hand of 10 (or 11) hcp or less with real ♣ suit. So does

1♠ - (2♦) - DBL

2♥ - 3♣.

 

The only difference is that 1NT could be 6 or 5 hcp, while DBL usually shows 8 to 11.

[han]

Thx everyone

After a the hand i had a talk with my partner and i agreed with his claim that im trying to be too creative. Oviously i didnt feel good about doubling but i also felt i must do something to show partner i got a good hand, it would be easier for me to pass, and i guess easy is sometimes right.

You also might consider playing fit non-jumps here, where 4♣ shows clubs and diamonds, and is not forcing beyond the four level. I am not saying this is best or even necessarily good, just no one mentioned it.

 

Ben

I know you like these non-jump fit bids, but do you really suggest that they should be non-forcing? I'm somewhat suprised. You are willing to give up on a forcing bid that shows clubs, as well as a forcing fit-showing bid??

 

 

But the real issue here is not a lack in conventions but a lack in dicipline. My understanding is that the negative double here shows 4+ spades and says nothing about clubs. If you would bid spades and then bid clubs every time partner will never believe that you don't have spades, and this is exactly the same.

 

Of course, if you have an agreement that the double doesn't show spades (as many people have over 1M-(1H)) then doubling would be fine, but without having discussed this you should assume that the double shows spades.

 

 

My apologies for repeating what wiser people have said earlier in this thread.

[han]

Correct, we have excatly 1 major when opps have bid hearts. That is what our negative double shows. Some play that it shows both unbid suits, i.e. spades and clubs. What it does not show, however, is clubs and a fit for diamonds.

 

You are welcome to have that agreement with your partner of course, but then you need another for when you have spades. If you haven't, opener will keep correcting to spades if he has a fit, no matter how hard you try to sign off in diamonds.

 

Roland

My concept (or modification) of negative dbl is to show unbid suit(s) when NFB is not available. If I bid a new suit (minor) after dbl, it denies the unbid (other) major.

 

I agree that it show not a hand of clubs and a fit for diamonds. That's why I guessed Flame hand of exactly 3 ♦s.

 

My version of negative dbl is similar to 1NT without intervention:

1♠ - 1NT

2♥ - 3♣

shows a hand of 10 (or 11) hcp or less with real ♣ suit. So does

1♠ - (2♦) - DBL

2♥ - 3♣.

 

The only difference is that 1NT could be 6 or 5 hcp, while DBL usually shows 8 to 11.

This sounds like a playable treatment. It has some faults (especially at higher levels it is important to show what suit(s) you have as soon as possible) but the standard treatment also has faults.

 

However, it would be good for you to realize that this is really not standard, and not expect other players to play the same way. (as you obviously did from your first reaction in this thread)

 

A good book that about negative doubles is (surprise) "negative doubles" by Marty Bergen. It discusses the standard treatment as well as some modifications, like the modification that Ben discussed and "thrump doubles".

[mike777]

1) You can have any agreements you want

2) My guess is 99.9 of partnerships playing NFB play 4 clubs here as game force. How often can playing exactly 4c or 4d be right?

3) Playing light openers I do not think my hand is worth a game force if partner cannot reopen over 3h. Will balance with 4nt over 4h.

4) Hand B choice 1=pass, choice 2=1nt. Would not make a nfb as strongly prefer 6 card or very strong 5 card suit and around 7-12 hcp with light openers.

[inquiry]

Thx everyone

After a the hand i had a talk with my partner and i agreed with his claim that im trying to be too creative. Oviously i didnt feel good about doubling but i also felt i must do something to show partner i got a good hand, it would be easier for me to pass, and i guess easy is sometimes right.

You also might consider playing fit non-jumps here, where 4♣ shows clubs and diamonds, and is not forcing beyond the four level. I am not saying this is best or even necessarily good, just no one mentioned it.

 

Ben

I know you like these non-jump fit bids, but do you really suggest that they should be non-forcing? I'm somewhat suprised. You are willing to give up on a forcing bid that shows clubs, as well as a forcing fit-showing bid??

Well 4♣ if you use it as fit nonjump forces to just 4♦. Of course, since opener is forced to bid again, you can have a monster hand. That is 4♣ is forcing to 4 level in your known fit (in this case ♦'s. HAving said that, I will repeat that I don't play this as fit non-jump. But over three level preempts, I don't play traditional negative doubles either. For a lack of a better term, I use a "thrump" double (three notrump), so 4♣ by me shows that minor and the other major and is forcing. With just a minor I would double first and then bid 4♣ if necessary.

 

This treatment has advantages and disavantages.

 

Ben

[Flame]

My version of negative dbl is similar to 1NT without intervention:

1♠ - 1NT

2♥ - 3♣

shows a hand of 10 (or 11) hcp or less with real ♣ suit.  So does

1♠ - (2♦) - DBL

2♥ - 3♣.

 

The only difference is that 1NT could be 6 or 5 hcp, while DBL usually shows 8 to 11.

I thought this is standard because this is the way i was taught many many years ago.

So i guess you just pass with a good 6 card club suit and 8 hcp when partner open and RHO overcall.

[the hog]

Not necessarily.

You could play that 2NT is a form of Lebensohl, requesting that pd bid 3C. Now pass = the hand with long C and 3D = competitive with long Ds. An immediate 3C = t/f to D, invit+ etc.

 

Auken - von Arnim for example play this.

 

Ron