Opening at the 4 level

[Shugart23]

In all seriousness, if I am going to use AWM's method, I want to have a clear conscious that it is GCC compliant. Seems like the Encyclopedia of Bridge is a reasonable authority......not really meaning to get into a pissing match with you

[nullve]

Probably not a new idea:

 

4♣ = preempt in either clubs or diamonds

 

(4♣ > 3♠, so not a brown sticker! :))

[Zelandakh]

Nice necro! My choice is 3NT as a good 4m opening and 4m as a bad 4m opening. This keep the power of the natural preempt while offsetting its biggest drawback somewhat. For your next necro, we had a spate of threads on high level openings back in 2011-12 so just dig into those archives and have a ball!

[johnworf]

Playing Match points and Precision, we open at the 4 level using trick counts (which vary by who is red and who is white) Our 4 level opening bids (or immediate overcalls) tend to have no defensive values, no 4 card Major and generally be short of an opening 1 level bid...This sometimes causes a problem when opening 4H or 4S because partner can't get an accurate assessment as to high of a sacrifice might be in order (eg. why pre-empt 5 Hearts). Looking to improve our simple methods. I did find the following scheme, but I would like some advice on what might be best way to describe 4 level opening bids and partner responses. :

 

 

4C shows a hand with a long semi-solid Major with 3.5-4 Honor tricks OR a Minor suit with 2.5 -3 Honor tricks; no void

4D says to go ahead and bid your suit

4H is a slam try

4S is a slam try

5C is to Play

6C shows first round control in 3 suits

5D is to Play

6D shows first round control in 3 suits

4D shows a hand with a long strong Major with 2.5-3 Honor tricks

4H shows no slam interest

Pass

4S is a correction to Spades

4S shows slam interest in Hearts

4NT is BETA (Control Asking)

5C is a cue bid

5D is a cue bid

4H is natural and weak

4S is natural and weak

4NT shows long Clubs or Diamonds, strong, with at least one void

5C shows no slam interest

Pass

5D is a correction to Diamonds

 

As an aside, I don't think I want to use all the 4 level opening suit bids to strictly show Majors, although I have thought that maybe opening 3NT could show a Minor ( Our 3NT opening currently is undefined), which would then take care of that concern.

 

I also need to be GCC compliant

 

Thank you in advance for any suggestions.

 

I play namyats: https://www.stellar-bridge.co.uk/namyats/

I hate going passed 3NT with a long minor so I like the idea of using 4C and 4D as showing better hearts and spades than if I bid 4H or 4S directly.

[Zelandakh]

I play namyats: https://www.stellar-bridge.co.uk/namyats/

I hate going passed 3NT with a long minor so I like the idea of using 4C and 4D as showing better hearts and spades than if I bid 4H or 4S directly.

Namyats is often combined with a 3NT opening showing a 4 level preempt in a minor (as opposed to only a solid minor). One idea that has gained ground over the last 20ish years is to reverse these two so that 4m is natural and 3NT is the Namyats hand showing either major.

[blackshoe]

Namyats is often combined with a 3NT opening showing a 4 level preempt in a minor (as opposed to only a solid minor). One idea that has gained ground over the last 20ish years is to reverse these two so that 4m is natural and 3NT is the Namyats hand showing either major.

Hm. How is that different to Kantar 3NT?

[Zelandakh]

Hm. How is that different to Kantar 3NT?

I have to admit not knowing Kantar 3NT by that name - it's probably a US/Euro sort of thing. Looking it up online though, K3NT appears to deny an outside ace, which Namyats does not, so that would appear to be at least one difference.

[pescetom]

Namyats is often combined with a 3NT opening showing a 4 level preempt in a minor (as opposed to only a solid minor). One idea that has gained ground over the last 20ish years is to reverse these two so that 4m is natural and 3NT is the Namyats hand showing either major.

 

I missed this interesting comment.

What are the usual developments after 3NT?

[DavidKok]

A double by LHO showing both majors, followed by 4♣ 'pass or correct'.

[pescetom]

A double by LHO showing both majors, followed by 4♣ 'pass or correct'.

Sorry, I should have been clearer: I was referring to the second possibility, 3NT as Namyats.

[DavidKok]

I've never been a fan of Namyats, but I imagine that if your opponents are made of cardboard and/or spilled something sticky all over their bidding boxes you can play something like 4♣ positive, 4♦ 'bid your suit', maybe even ParadoX responses (4♥ says 'pass with hearts, forward-going with spades' and 4♠ the other way around). In practice the (two) free round(s) of bidding allow prepared opponents to enter with shapely weak-to-intermediate hands most of the time, and you should probably just play something like "pass over their overcall asks opener to bid the suit, double means we sit, anything else is forward-going".

[pescetom]

I've never been a fan of Namyats, but I imagine that if your opponents are made of cardboard and/or spilled something sticky all over their bidding boxes you can play something like 4♣ positive, 4♦ 'bid your suit', maybe even ParadoX responses (4♥ says 'pass with hearts, forward-going with spades' and 4♠ the other way around). In practice the (two) free round(s) of bidding allow prepared opponents to enter with shapely weak-to-intermediate hands most of the time, and you should probably just play something like "pass over their overcall asks opener to bid the suit, double means we sit, anything else is forward-going".

 

I was imagining something like:

4♣ = bid your suit in transfer

4♦ = bid your suit

4♥ = pass or correct

4♠ = pass with spades, forward going with hearts.

 

I agree that opponents might well not collaborate. I haven't noticed that problem with normal Namyats, but at my non-expert level of competition not many opponents have anything particular prepared against it and of course it comes up so rarely that it's hard to spot a pattern anyway. That doesn't mean it's pointless, the goal is to take pressure off 4M.

[DavidKok]

I was imagining something like:

4♣ = bid your suit in transfer

4♦ = bid your suit

4♥ = pass or correct

4♠ = pass with spades, forward going with hearts.

 

I agree that opponents might well not collaborate. I haven't noticed that problem with normal Namyats, but at my non-expert level of competition not many opponents have anything particular prepared against it and of course it comes up so rarely that it's hard to spot a pattern anyway. That doesn't mean it's pointless, the goal is to take pressure off 4M.

My favourite defence against regular Namyats is

• (direct position) X = 13-15 (semi)balanced, after that we have penalty doubles
  
• Bid = not strong (9-13), real suit
  
• Their suit = three-suited hand
  
• Pass, then double = takeout but not 3-suited, usually a flaw in one of the minors
  
• Pass, then bid = as over a normal preempt
  

It's far from perfect but it's easy to remember. I think a defence like this already negates most of the potential advantages of the Namyats.

 

As for your suggested continuation, I think we pretty much agree. Personally I don't worry too much about right-siding the contract (keep in mind responder has a choice between 4M and 4♦ already), so I would use 4♣ as some asking bid instead of forcing a transfer into the suit. Since the Namyats promises a solid suit responder will, with a strong hand, usually be able to tell which suit opener has.

[Zelandakh]

I missed this interesting comment.

What are the usual developments after 3NT?

I would need to look at some top-level CCs to get the details but iirc it is something like

 

4♣ = ask (with SI)

4♦ = bid your M

4♥ = pass/correct

 

Over the 4♣ ask, there are a few structures. Meckwell (who play it as good 4M rather than strict Namyats) bid 4M-1 with 2 keycards and 4M+1 with 3 keycards. The Namyats-specific one I remember is 4♦ with spades (after which 4♥ is a re-ask) and others are the same as if you had the Namyats auction 4♣ - 4♦. There is at least one CC with extremely detailed (and complicated) follow-ups. I might be able to find it at ecats if it would be important for you but it would take some time. Generally though, I think one of the two above structures should be expected and if you already play Namyats, the second is just extremely easy to switch over to.

[pescetom]

I would need to look at some top-level CCs to get the details but iirc it is something like

 

4♣ = ask (with SI)

4♦ = bid your M

4♥ = pass/correct

 

Over the 4♣ ask, there are a few structures. Meckwell (who play it as good 4M rather than strict Namyats) bid 4M-1 with 2 keycards and 4M+1 with 3 keycards. The Namyats-specific one I remember is 4♦ with spades (after which 4♥ is a re-ask) and others are the same as if you had the Namyats auction 4♣ - 4♦. There is at least one CC with extremely detailed (and complicated) follow-ups. I might be able to find it at ecats if it would be important for you but it would take some time. Generally though, I think one of the two above structures should be expected and if you already play Namyats, the second is just extremely easy to switch over to.

 

Thanks. I guess that begs the question of what is the "standard" meaning of bids after 4♣ - 4♦. We play 4♦ as a puppet to 4♥, but if after that responder continues with a control-bid then 4♦ promised control in diamonds.

[Zelandakh]

Thanks. I guess that begs the question of what is the "standard" meaning of bids after 4♣ - 4♦. We play 4♦ as a puppet to 4♥, but if after that responder continues with a control-bid then 4♦ promised control in diamonds.

Not that I have played it in a while but from memory the old (circa 1980s) way was:-

 

4♣ - 4♦

==

4♥ = 1 loser suit, no outside ace/void

4♠ = 1 loser suit + ♠A

4NT = 1 loser suit + side void (there is a good case for reversing these 2 calls)

5m = 1 loser suit + mA

5♥ = no loser suit

--

 

With a hand without slam interest you are just supposed to bid 4♥ and hide the unknown hand. I am also aware that there are plenty of variations (such as 4♥ = 7PTs; 4♠+ = 8PTs) and even the definition of a Namyats hand has shifted somewhat over the years. In general though, the initial ask divides the range into weak and strong (typically 1 trick difference) and the higher calls show some side feature. This is (at expert level) often followed up by some kind of asking bid structure but that is well beyond the basic level of playing the convention.

[AL78]

I've come to this thread late, but here is what I play with one of my partners:

 

3♠: Lond solid minor, no A or K outside.

3NT: 4♣ or ♦ pre-empt.

4♣: Long solid ♥ or 1 loser ♥ and an outside ace.

4♦: Long solid ♠ or 1 loser ♠ and outside ace.

4♥/♠: pre-empt, suit and hand worse than 4♣/♦.

 

I can't comment on how effective it has been as it has never come up in the several years we have been playing it.

[pescetom]

Not that I have played it in a while but from memory the old (circa 1980s) way was:-

 

4♣ - 4♦

==

4♥ = 1 loser suit, no outside ace/void

4♠ = 1 loser suit + ♠A

4NT = 1 loser suit + side void (there is a good case for reversing these 2 calls)

5m = 1 loser suit + mA

5♥ = no loser suit

--

 

With a hand without slam interest you are just supposed to bid 4♥ and hide the unknown hand. I am also aware that there are plenty of variations (such as 4♥ = 7PTs; 4♠+ = 8PTs) and even the definition of a Namyats hand has shifted somewhat over the years. In general though, the initial ask divides the range into weak and strong (typically 1 trick difference) and the higher calls show some side feature. This is (at expert level) often followed up by some kind of asking bid structure but that is well beyond the basic level of playing the convention.

Thanks again, will file that away.

We get both the 0/1 loser and side ace/void information through our control-bid sequence, so probably not missing much there.

We play the direct bid of 4♥ as forcing, as without slam interest we can pass 4♦-4♥.

Swings and roundabouts I guess, but it does give responder more options when he wishes to hide the unknown hand.