Transfer or Stayman?

[KamalK]

Hello

 

Have always been confused with these hands. Playing SAYC, Partner at N opened 1NT and I had 6-6 Majors. Pls advise how best to bid. I play usual transfers but not Ogust. Thank you :rolleyes:

 

Kamal

[helene_t]

If you bid stayman and partner replies 2♦,you won't know which of the majors you want to play in. So it is better to transfer to spades and then bid 3♥ afterwards. Then partner will know you have both majors and he can make a choice. If he suggests 3NT you can then bid 4♥ (or maybe 6♥, depending of your strength) to tell him that he really has to chose one of the majors :)

[Cyberyeti]

What do people play 1N-2♣-2♦-4♦ as ?

 

Any reason for this not to be pick a major ?

 

(I don't play smolen or 4 level transfers so we use a direct 1N-4♦ for this)

[mikeh]

What do people play 1N-2♣-2♦-4♦ as ?

 

Any reason for this not to be pick a major ?

 

(I don't play smolen or 4 level transfers so we use a direct 1N-4♦ for this)

many would play this as 6 hearts, with 4 spades.

 

Anyway, the OP made it clear that he was looking for a suggestion as to how to bid the holding given the constraints of his methods.

[Cyberyeti]

many would play this as 6 hearts, with 4 spades.

 

OK, I didn't know this.

 

Anyway, the OP made it clear that he was looking for a suggestion as to how to bid the holding given the constraints of his methods.

 

I wasn't sure what SAYC included (or whether it detailed this bid at all) in this sort of auction so was trying to find out.

[kenberg]

I look at these things as "what will partner do?"

11NT-2H

2S -3H

?

 

I'm pretty sure that in SAYC or practically anywhere you have shown at least five spades, at least five hearts and game forcing values. If this sequence doesn't show that it should.

 

Now if partner bids 3NT over 3H he presumably has a doubleton spade after which I will bid 4H and I would expect him to pass. His next most likely bids are 3S and 4H. Of course I pass 4H assuming that my hand is not suitable for slam. If he bids 3S we have a nine card fit and I raise to 4S.

 

Now if you are asking about slam tries when you are 6-6 that's another matter. Here is how I think it should go, but with a casual partnership of course it could be a problem:

After

1N-2H

2S-3H

partner can bid 3S to accept spades, and now you could make a slam try by bidding 4m. If he has a heart fit instead of a spade fit he, over 3H, could bid 4m. thus: 3S over 3H shows a spade fit and allows you to cue, 4m over 3H sets hearts as trump and shows a control.

 

What happens next? It depends on who holds what. No doubt there are more exotic methods but this gets trump set and shows some values. Down on the farm that's called a good day's work.

[Vampyr]

I use 1NT-4♣ as "pick a major".

[Zelandakh]

I look at these things as "what will partner do?"

1NT-2H

2S -3H

 

I'm pretty sure that in SAYC or practically anywhere you have shown at least five spades, at least five hearts and game forcing values. If this sequence doesn't show that it should.

In SAYC you are right but anywhere is an overbid. I like to play this as 5-5 invitational and have done for many years. With 5-5 majors there is Vampyr's suggestion:

I use 1NT-4♣ as "pick a major".

...which is very common in throughout the UK; Extended Stayman (if you can afford to give up a 3m rebid after 1NT - 2♣; 2♦); or, for me, the sequence 1NT - 2♦; 2♥ - 3♦ is 5-5 and game-forcing. This last has several advantages over the SAYC sequence and the structure frees up 1NT - 2♦; 2♥ - 2♠ to allow for a transfer rebid scheme that improves efficiency (admittedly at the cost of being able to stop in 2♠ with the 5-5 invite).

[Vampyr]

a transfer rebid scheme that improves efficiency (admittedly at the cost of being able to stop in 2♠ with the 5-5 invite).

 

Do tell!

[Zelandakh]

Do tell!

I have many times! After 1NT - 2♦; 2♥,

2♠ = natural 2NT or clubs (optionally can also use this for a slammy one-suiter freeing up a 3♥ response)

2NT = 4 spades, INV

3♣ = 4+ diamonds

3♦ = 5-5 majors, GF

rest = standard

[Vampyr]

I have many times! After 1NT - 2♦; 2♥,

2♠ = natural 2NT or clubs (optionally can also use this for a slammy one-suiter freeing up a 3♥ response)

2NT = 4 spades, INV

3♣ = 4+ diamonds

3♦ = 5-5 majors, GF

rest = standard

 

That is great but what about continuations (if you have posted them before I apologise; maybe you can send me a link?)

[ladydoc]

one nt pass 2 clubs pass 2 diamonds pass 3 hearts> 5/5 majors invitational

one nt pass 2 clubs pass 2 diamonds pass 3 spades> 5/5 majors game forcing

 

above system is invitational smolen. A perfect way to describe the above hand

[helene_t]

Uhm, OP asked how to bid in SAYC. Obviously there are umpteen notrump structures available. But only one in SAYC.

[Cyberyeti]

Uhm, OP asked how to bid in SAYC. Obviously there are umpteen notrump structures available. But only one in SAYC.

 

Except that the several SAYC booklets I looked at didn't detail what say 1N-2♣-2♦-4♦ means, so in fact SAYC is a structure but not a comprehensive one.

[Zelandakh]

That is great but what about continuations (if you have posted them before I apologise; maybe you can send me a link?)

I think I have posted more but not sure of links, so will post here. The key is the 2♠ rebid - the rest is simple I think. I include the strong one-suiter here which limits the options somewhat; it would be possible to do more if it was only "bal or clubs".

 

2♠

... - 2NT = min, 2 hearts

... - ... - 3♣ = 4 clubs

... - ... - 3♦ = 5+ clubs

... - ... - 3♥ = strong one-suiter

... - ... - 3NT = to play

... - ... - 3♠/4m = splinter

... - 3♣ = max, 2 hearts

... - ... - 3♦ = 4+ clubs

... - ... - 3♥ = strong one-suiter

... - ... - 3NT = to play

... - ... - 3/4m = splinter

... - 3♦ = max, 3+ hearts

... - 3♥ = min, 3+ hearts

3♣

... - 3♦ = 4+ diamonds, 2 hearts

... - 3♥ = 2-3 diamonds, 3+ hearts

... - 3♠ = 2-3 diamonds, 2 hearts, 5 spades

... - 3NT = 2-3 diamonds, 2 hearts, 2-4 spades

... - others = 4+ diamonds, 3+ hearts

3♦

... - 3M = 3+ suit

... - 3NT = no fit (2245 or similar)

... - others = double fit

 

There are probably further optimisations to be had - I whipped this part of the system up fairly quickly with what seemed logical to me, the logic being more important to me than perfection. It also fits with the logic of the rest of the system with 1NT - 2♣ (puppet); 2♦ - 2NT being invitational with 4-4 majors and 1NT - 2NT being invitational with 5♠ and 4♥. It was this switch to Puppet that prompted the search for new ideas but I think the overall scheme also translates to ordinary Stayman with appropriate adjustments elsewhere.

[helene_t]

Except that the several SAYC booklets I looked at didn't detail what say 1N-2♣-2♦-4♦ means, so in fact SAYC is a structure but not a comprehensive one.

It is undiscussed so either it doesn't exist or it is natural. The latter meaning is silly since 3♦ is forcing but w/e. It certainly doesn't show 5-5 majors since there are non-confusing ways of showing that.

 

SAYC is not supposed to be a comprehensive system. It is supposed to be a system you can play with a pick-up partner, limiting your system discusion to a 4-character SMS message, with a reasonably small risk of running into misunderstandings or major system gaps.

[ArtK78]

Hello

 

Have always been confused with these hands. Playing SAYC, Partner at N opened 1NT and I had 6-6 Majors. Pls advise how best to bid. I play usual transfers but not Ogust. Thank you :rolleyes:

 

Kamal

I don't know what you mean about Ogust. It doesn't apply when partner opens 1NT.

 

As far as the choice between Stayman and Transfers is concerned, ask yourself this question - Do you need to know if partner has a 4 card major? If the answer is no, then Stayman is probably not the right solution.

 

It is usually the case that you want to use transfers to show long suits in response to a notrump opening bid. In this case, you have two long suits and (I assume) a game forcing hand. So you want to transfer to one suit and bid the other. With both majors, this is easy - transfer to spades then bid hearts. This is forcing (unless you have some unusual agreement to the contrary) and shows at least 5-4 in the two suits - probably at least 5-5 for most players. If partner does not choose one of your suits over 3♥, you will bid hearts again, forcing him to choose.

 

If you want to bid beyond game, you will have to be careful not to make any bid that can be passed. This can be tricky if partner has not chosen one of your two suits.

[apollo1201]

Hi all this is what I play for 55, used it on ce for a 65 but was never dealt à 66!

 

Weak hand with no hope of game: just transfer to S and pass, even with xxxxx QJxxx, it avoids your 2D transfer being Xed and if opps balance you can cheaply show your 2nd suit

 

Hand with game possibility (if pard has no wasted minor hcps): transfer to H then bid 2S if pard doesnot superaccept

 

Hand with GF value but no more: 4D we use for that - we do not lose the moderate slam try in H vs gf in H by direct 4H and 2D followed by 4H

 

Hand with slam hope if pard doesnt have an ill fitting hand: transfer to S then 4H

 

Hand who would be disappointed not to be in slam: transfer to S then 3H and lots of room to cue

 

Stayman is used (as mentionned by other posters) only if knowing pard has a 4cM is useful to you. Usually you have a 4cM (sometimes a 5M 4m 31 with invitational or almost invitational value). With a 55 hand you dont need. Even so more with 66!

[msjennifer]

If the hand warrants only a game then why not,

1NT----2heart

2S-----4heart

This I presume shows six six in majors.

[helene_t]

If the hand warrants only a game then why not,

1NT----2heart

2S-----4heart

This I presume shows six six in majors.

I would be afraid if that could be taken as a splinter (regardless of how it this sequence is defined in SAYC).

[msjennifer]

I would be afraid if that could be taken as a splinter (regardless of how it this sequence is defined in SAYC).

I do not think it is wise to show a singleton facing a balanced partner .Good thing you used the word "regardless".

It may work once in a thousand hands only.So better to play simple bridge.Too many gadgets

spoil many hands.

[Zelandakh]

If the hand warrants only a game then why not,

1NT----2heart

2S-----4heart

This I presume shows six six in majors.

It is a splinter for me. What do you see as the advantage of this route over 1NT - 2♥; 2♠ - 3♥; 3NT - 4♥ if not playing a direct 4♣ for this purpose?

[Zelandakh]

I do not think it is wise to show a singleton facing a balanced partner.

A balanced hand cannot judge between KQJx and Axxx?

[MrAce]

I do not think it is wise to show a singleton facing a balanced partner .Good thing you used the word "regardless".

It may work once in a thousand hands only.....

 

Oh dear...Making such an awful claim is one thing, assigning a statistical number to it, even when the intention was not literal, is even worse.

[helene_t]

I do not think it is wise to show a singleton facing a balanced partner .Good thing you used the word "regardless".

It may work once in a thousand hands only.So better to play simple bridge.Too many gadgets

spoil many hands.

Actually it is very good to show a singleton opposite a balanced partner. If partner has Axxx in one suit and KJxx in another then it is great news for him to hear of a singleton opposite Axxx but not so great to hear of a singleton opposite KJxx.

 

But the issue was not whether 4♥ ought to be a splinter or whether it was a good idea to use it with a particular hand, assuming that it is a splinter. The issue was what 4♥ means in SAYC or maybe more to the point, how a partner who plays (or claims to play) SAYC is likely to interpret 4♥.