UdcaDenny Posted April 8, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 8, 2015 45.C.4.b is about a call from dummy. You can read more about it at:http://web2.acbl.org/documentlibrary/rulings/Changing-a-Called-Card-from-Dummy.pdf Regards,Dan Im greatful to Dan Plato at ACBL who helped me to understand this Law better and also gave me above link with 10 examples.Its a pity ist not written in Law 45.C.4.b that it only applies to intended cards from dummy and not from played cards fromopponents. That would have saved me from a lot of troubles and a friend also said I could get expelled from the club if I dontdrop the subject as our TD will never change his opinion about this Law.End of the story, now you can continue talking about psychic bids :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted April 8, 2015 Report Share Posted April 8, 2015 More reasons to continue my ongoing rant to anyone who will listen: The word, "PLAY", need never/should never be used at the Bridge table. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pran Posted April 8, 2015 Report Share Posted April 8, 2015 45.C.4.b is about a call from dummy. You can read more about it at:http://web2.acbl.org/documentlibrary/rulings/Changing-a-Called-Card-from-Dummy.pdf Regards,Dan Im greatful to Dan Plato at ACBL who helped me to understand this Law better and also gave me above link with 10 examples.Its a pity ist not written in Law 45.C.4.b that it only applies to intended cards from dummy and not from played cards fromopponents. That would have saved me from a lot of troubles and a friend also said I could get expelled from the club if I dontdrop the subject as our TD will never change his opinion about this Law.End of the story, now you can continue talking about psychic bids :P It is worth observing that the subsections of Law 45C "Compulsory Play of Card" begins with:1: A defender’s card 2: Declarer must play a card from his hand if 3: A card in the dummy 4a: A card must be played if4b: Until his partner has played a card a player may 5: A penalty card, major or minor, If Law 45C4b onbly applies to iintended Cards from dummy then why does not Law 45C4a (like Law 45C3) begins with "A card in Dummy" and Law 45C4b with "Until Declarer has played a card"? WBFLC may be accused of being sloppy (I don't agree), but the distinctions in Law 45C are clear and significant: Law 45C4 (both a and b) applies to cards from any of the four players at the table. (That Law 45C4 is almost never relevant other than when Declarer designates a card from Dummy doesn't change this.) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vampyr Posted April 8, 2015 Report Share Posted April 8, 2015 More reasons to continue my ongoing rant to anyone who will listen: The word, "PLAY", need never/should never be used at the Bridge table. I once had a game with a friend from America who did this. Eventually he got tired of my asking "which one?" And designated cards in an appropriate manner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted April 8, 2015 Report Share Posted April 8, 2015 I once had a game with a friend from America who did this. Eventually he got tired of my asking "which one?" And designated cards in an appropriate manner.Good for you. Of the people around here who are aware of my anti-"play" campaign there are the following subsets: 1) Those who also dislike the practice, and are glad they aren't the ones fronting themselves against it.2) Those who actually have reformed.3) Those who can't break the habit.4) Those who are trying.5) Those who are indignant that everyone knows what "play" means and it is just fine. 6) Those who continue to say "play" at every trick, just to annoy me. Extra credit for correctly guessing which is the largest and the smallest subset. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billw55 Posted April 8, 2015 Report Share Posted April 8, 2015 Personally I am fine with "play" and use it sometimes myself. In USA it is understood to mean "follow suit with lowest card", which is not ambiguous, and any rulings should be and are based on that assumption. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted April 8, 2015 Report Share Posted April 8, 2015 And for a bonus it gives us another word which could be mistaken for "ACE" or "EIGHT". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billw55 Posted April 8, 2015 Report Share Posted April 8, 2015 And for a bonus it gives us another word which could be mistaken for "ACE" or "EIGHT".All they have in common is a single vowel sound. Should aces or eights be given another name on the same grounds - and spades while we are at it? We will also have to work on high, five, nine, and diamond. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackshoe Posted April 8, 2015 Report Share Posted April 8, 2015 Personally I am fine with "play" and use it sometimes myself. In USA it is understood to mean "follow suit with lowest card", which is not ambiguous, and any rulings should be and are based on that assumption.While I agree regarding rulings, IMO the practice is odious and should be stamped out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vampyr Posted April 8, 2015 Report Share Posted April 8, 2015 While I agree regarding rulings, IMO the practice is odious and should be stamped out. I feel very fortunate that this practice is very rare here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackshoe Posted April 8, 2015 Report Share Posted April 8, 2015 I played yesterday with a partner who has the habit. Unfortunately, any attempt on my part to get her to change would just confuse her, and she's confused enough already. :o Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vampyr Posted April 9, 2015 Report Share Posted April 9, 2015 While I agree regarding rulings, IMO the practice is odious and should be stamped out. To my mind "play" means "play anything". All that need be done is convince those responsible for writing ACBL regulations to agree with this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UdcaDenny Posted April 9, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 9, 2015 It is worth observing that the subsections of Law 45C "Compulsory Play of Card" begins with:1: A defender’s card 2: Declarer must play a card from his hand if 3: A card in the dummy 4a: A card must be played if4b: Until his partner has played a card a player may 5: A penalty card, major or minor, If Law 45C4b onbly applies to iintended Cards from dummy then why does not Law 45C4a (like Law 45C3) begins with "A card in Dummy" and Law 45C4b with "Until Declarer has played a card"? WBFLC may be accused of being sloppy (I don't agree), but the distinctions in Law 45C are clear and significant: Law 45C4 (both a and b) applies to cards from any of the four players at the table. (That Law 45C4 is almost never relevant other than when Declarer designates a card from Dummy doesn't change this.)So the law could be applied to a card from any hand but I thought designated means a named card intended to be played and that it differs from a played card already put on the table. Our TD called the played Ace of S a designated card and allowed my partner to pick it up and replace it with his 10. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordontd Posted April 9, 2015 Report Share Posted April 9, 2015 So the law could be applied to a card from any hand but I thought designated means a named card intended to be played and that it differs from a played card already put on the table. Both of those things are correct. In principle declarer or a defender could designate a card rather than playing it; in practice it almost never happens.Our TD called the played Ace of S a designated card and allowed my partner to pick it up and replace it with his 10.As has been pointed out repeatedly here, he's wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trinidad Posted April 9, 2015 Report Share Posted April 9, 2015 So the law could be applied to a card from any hand but I thought designated means a named card intended to be played and that it differs from a played card already put on the table. Our TD called the played Ace of S a designated card and allowed my partner to pick it up and replace it with his 10.Basically, the situation is very simple:A played card is a played card and cannot be changed. A card has been played when it is has been taken from the hand and put on or near the table. Playing a card is the physical action of moving the piece of plastic coated paper in the playing position. A player can designate a card: He can announce that he is going to play a card. That card has not been played yet. In practice, designations happen for every card that is played from dummy, but other players can also designate cards. A designated card has not been played yet and can be changed, but only if the designation was unintended. If the player who designated the card intended to play it when he designated it, he cannot change his mind anymore. However, if he misspoke, he is allowed to correct it. This makes it clear that in your situation we were not dealing with designated cards, but with played cards. Having said all that, I would try to live by: "It is good to be right but nice to be wise.". Just let it be and enjoy the part of the bridge that is bridge. Rik 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billw55 Posted April 9, 2015 Report Share Posted April 9, 2015 To my mind "play" means "play anything". All that need be done is convince those responsible for writing ACBL regulations to agree with this.IMO nothing "needs to be done" because there isn't a problem. Everyone here understands, and I have never seen a single person dispute the designation of "play". About the worst that happens is somebody uses it when dummy has no cards in the suit; in which case "play anything" is the correct interpretation, and law 46B5 applies. I understand that this practice is not common across the pond. So, if I went over there and played, I would not do it; this seems like a reasonable attitude to me. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vampyr Posted April 9, 2015 Report Share Posted April 9, 2015 The people (including some who have posted in this thread) who find the practice super annoying would disagree with you as to whether there is a problem. It seems that if there is a really annoying thing that is also illegal, it should be possible to get it changed. In theory anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barmar Posted April 9, 2015 Report Share Posted April 9, 2015 The people (including some who have posted in this thread) who find the practice super annoying would disagree with you as to whether there is a problem. It seems that if there is a really annoying thing that is also illegal, it should be possible to get it changed. In theory anyway.Maybe the people who find it super annoying need to learn some perspective. This is a minor transgression, and IMHO they're making a mountain out of a molehill. I don't think I do it myself, although I wouldn't be surprised if I do it without even noticing; there are enough people I play against who do it that I might have unconsciously picked up the habit. Just wondering, what's your stance on people cracking their knuckles? I suspect a correlation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vampyr Posted April 9, 2015 Report Share Posted April 9, 2015 Just wondering, what's your stance on people cracking their knuckles? I suspect a correlation. To be honest, I think that if someone incessantly cracked their knuckles during a hand, they would be deliberately trying to annoy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted April 9, 2015 Report Share Posted April 9, 2015 Maybe the people who find it super annoying need to learn some perspective. And, the people who do it or say it is just fine might learn some perspective from UdcaDenny's post #51 where the link has rulings involving things that can go wrong when the word "play" is used. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted April 9, 2015 Report Share Posted April 9, 2015 To my mind "play" means "play anything". All that need be done is convince those responsible for writing ACBL regulations to agree with this.Interesting, since if Declarer abdicates the choice of card to be played, Dummy does not get to choose one ---you do. Declarer leads the King from hand. Dummy has A52. Declarer says, "play". As defender, have you tried saying, "O.K., I choose the Ace." ?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pran Posted April 9, 2015 Report Share Posted April 9, 2015 Interesting, since if Declarer abdicates the choice of card to be played, Dummy does not get to choose one ---you do. Declarer leads the King from hand. Dummy has A52. Declarer says, "play". As defender, have you tried saying, "O.K., I choose the Ace." ??Quite correct, except thatIn case of an incomplete or erroneous call by declarer of the card to be played from dummy, the following restrictions apply (except when declarer’s different intention is incontrovertible):[...] 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted April 9, 2015 Report Share Posted April 9, 2015 Quite correct, except thatYes, Sven. I was not suggesting Stef would be successful in doing that; but, it would make an impression upon Declarer :rolleyes: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vampyr Posted April 9, 2015 Report Share Posted April 9, 2015 Interesting, since if Declarer abdicates the choice of card to be played, Dummy does not get to choose one ---you do. Declarer leads the King from hand. Dummy has A52. Declarer says, "play". As defender, have you tried saying, "O.K., I choose the Ace." ?? No, it is not a problem I normally have to deal with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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