Jacoby vs Splinter

[ahydra]

5cM, weak NT context. Both sides vul, matchpoints

 

[hv=pc=n&e=saj93hkq852djcq64&d=w&v=b&b=4&a=1sp]133|200[/hv]

 

Options are: 2NT = GF raise guaranteeing 4 card support, 4D = SPL, or some mastermind sequence via 2H (but that's anti-partnership-style).

 

This probably seems obvious to most of you - apologies if so. But it did generate a good amount of discussion after last night's game.

 

ahydra

[Bende]

5cM, weak NT context. Both sides vul, matchpoints

 

[hv=pc=n&e=saj93hkq852djcq64&d=w&v=b&b=4&a=1sp]133|200[/hv]

 

Options are: 2NT = GF raise guaranteeing 4 card support, 4D = SPL, or some mastermind sequence via 2H (but that's anti-partnership-style).

 

This probably seems obvious to most of you - apologies if so. But it did generate a good amount of discussion after last night's game.

 

ahydra

 

Why would 2♥ be masterminding? I would bid 2♥ and efter partner's neutral 2♠ or 2NT, I would bid 4♦ which I like to play as spade support, good heart suit, specifically singleton diamond and denies club control. Even if I would not have such specific agreements, I think 1♠-2♥; 2♠-4♦ should describe my hand reasonably well.

 

If not allowed to bid 2♥, I would splinter.

[MrAce]

I'd splinter and tell my story in 1 bid.

[blackshoe]

You can sometimes bid Jacoby 2NT with a singleton — if you have a strong hand. This hand isn't strong enough. It's good for a splinter though, and as MrAce says, that tells your story in one bid.

[Cyberyeti]

Given your choices I'd splinter, but I like to be able to bid 3♥ with this type of hand.

[mikeh]

I'd splinter and tell my story in 1 bid.

we've seen this debate many times before, and it will surprise few to learn that I disagree with the splinter.

 

My view is that 'my story' includes not merely near-opening to minimum opening values, 4 trump and a stiff but also, and very importantly, a potential trick source. I consider it a crime to conceal the hearts when I have a full opening bid, great trump, and KQxxx in hearts.

 

We have seen threads before in which some people, for reasons that they have stated but which make little sense to me, assert that they systemically deny 4 spades when they bid 2♥, so if one does decide to handicap oneself in that way, then the choice is as the OP suggested: splinter or Jacoby. I don't like either alternative, but if forced to play such a constrained method, I would choose jacoby on the basis that this hand is simply too good to splinter.

 

Consider this: we splinter and partner bids 4♥. Now, if that is LTTC, we have a huge hand and yet no descriptive call. If it is the heart A, and it can hardly be anything else if we don't play LTTC, then our trick-taking potential has gone through the roof.....maybe we can keycard, but I'd hate to do that and find partner with KQxxx AJx Axx xx and be unable to distinguish it from KQxxx Axx xxx Ax. Note that he can hardly keycard with that hand, since while he will usually be able to know how many fast losers we have, he won't be able to tell whether we have 12 tricks.

 

Thus the splinter, while possibly working out when partner can take charge, creates a lot of guesswork on other common layouts, and meanwhile hides a very important feature of the hand.

[aguahombre]

Agree with Bende, above. Sure, the direct splinter tells a story right off the bat. But Bend's sequence starting with 2H seems to tell a more accurate story.

 

In either case, we are painting a limited game-forcing picture to put Opener in charge. If we can improve the picture via 2H instead of the direct Splinter, that gets my vote.

 

IMO, J2N would suck here. The hand which should be describing would be putting himself in charge. That is masterminding... an unfortunate term introduced by the OP to convey his personal feelings about a particular option which seems to be the best option.

[mikeh]

 

 

IMO, J2N would suck here. The hand which should be describing would be putting himself in charge. That is masterminding... an unfortunate term introduced by the OP to convey his personal feelings about a particular option which seems to be the best option.

 

While I don't like J2N on this hand, I do think it better than the splinter for the reasons I explained in my earlier post.

 

I don't like the description of J2N as masterminding.

 

My point is that if one cannot bid 2♥, then either choice of forcing raise is poor. We are too strong, especially in playing strength should partner hold the Heart A, to splinter, and we are going to be stuck over partner's most common forward-going action should we splinter. We may have similar, but different, problems with choices after his response to J2N, but that doesn't make the J2N course 'masterminding'.

 

There are auctions on which one can validly describe someone's choice as 'masterminding', but that unfortunate term should be used to actions that distort the auction in a manner that misleads partner or deprives him of any meaningful ability to participate intelligently. While both J2N and splinter can create problems, neither is a huge distortion, and both permit partner to participate if their hands warrant.

[ahydra]

The reason I described 2H as "masterminding" is because 1S-2H-[2S/2NT]-4D for us would show only 3 card support; all 4-card raises go via SPL or 2NT. So we're hiding a very valuable fourth spade from partner. We don't play 2/1; but even if we did, does 1S-2H-2S-4D really promise 4 spades (what would one do with 3514)?

 

Maybe this isn't a great system, but there is generally a huge difference in slam potential of hands with 8-fit vs 9-fit so I think it's useful to distinguish between 3- and 4-card support immediately.

 

ahydra

[WesleyC]

Simple Jacoby 2NT isn't a great convention. But if you change to a slightly more complex method you can handle this hand easily.

 

3NT = 9-10 HCP undisclosed splinter with 4C = asking relay.

4C/4D/4H = 11-13 HCP splinter.

2NT = GF Balanced or 14+ splinter (with methods to show the shortage).

 

Using these methods 4D describes your hand pretty well.

 

WesC

[ArtK78]

In prior threads on the subject of Jacoby 2NT vs. Splinters, I summarized my position as the following:

 

1.If I want captaincy, I bid Jacoby 2NT. I usually do this when I have a very strong hand and obtaining a few bits of relevant information from partner (shortness, controls, etc.) will be enough for me to place the contract.

 

2. If I want to turn over captaincy to partner I splinter. I usually do this on game forcing hands without significant extra values with classic or close-to-classic splinter bid shape.

 

On this hand, we have a third option - bid 2♥ and then support spades. That will create a cooperative auction in which each partner tells the other pertinent information about his hand. That is the route I would take. The existence of a good heart suit in responder's hand - a source of tricks, as Mike states - is too important to ignore.

 

I hear one poster saying that bidding 2♥ and then jumping in diamonds - a delayed splinter - would show exactly 3 spades. I don't know why one would handcuff oneself with this sort of restriction on methods. In any event, I don't know that I want to make a delayed splinter over a 2♠ rebid by partner. It is not out of the question, but there are other options available - for example, raise to 3♠. Now partner knows you have a good heart suit, spade support and slam interest. And, if partner does something other than rebid 2♠, you are likely to be at least as well off if not better placed than you would have been had you chosen another option.

[ahydra]

I don't know that I want to make a delayed splinter over a 2♠ rebid by partner. It is not out of the question, but there are other options available - for example, raise to 3♠. Now partner knows you have a good heart suit, spade support and slam interest.

 

We don't play 2/1

 

You do however have a good point that forcing all 4-card raises to go via 2NT or SPL is rather inflexible; definitely worth discussing this with my partner.

 

ahydra

[aguahombre]

 

 

There are auctions on which one can validly describe someone's choice as 'masterminding', but that unfortunate term should be used to actions that distort the auction in a manner that misleads partner or deprives him of any meaningful ability to participate intelligently. While both J2N and splinter can create problems, neither is a huge distortion, and both permit partner to participate if their hands warrant.

We agree that J2N in the abstract leaves room for opener to participate in the auction ---later, perhaps. But on this hand, J2N doesn't give opener any useful information upon which to base his cooperation/participation.

[mike777]

I will splinter, limited, pard will expect roughly 4=4=1=4 and 6.5-7 loser hand.

 

expect many votes for starting with 2h here.

 

PRefer 2nt to be stronger hand.

[SteveMoe]

We play 3♥ over 1♠ as a 10-12 splinter with hidden shortness. That's what I'll do.

[ggwhiz]

I also dislike splinters as being used way too often and prefer jacoby 2nt in many cases but not this one.

 

Our responses of 3♠ (big balanced extras) or 3nt (lesser extras ie. control rich 14 counts) would leave this hand with an awkward next bid. Put me down for 2♥

 

As others point out, having an undisclosed weakness in 1 suit and a source of tricks in another hardly makes a splinter showing your hand.

[ahydra]

Thanks all. At the table I went with 2NT, my reasoning being that because of the weakness in clubs I needed to know about partner's general values (and club control, if any) rather than whether he has wastage in diamonds. Partner said however that he would expect a splinter with this hand. Whilst it does show the shape, it does hide the heart suit and could result in a fiddly cuebidding auction while I struggle to work out if we have two club losers.

 

Having read some of the comments about captaincy of the hand I could be convinced that SPL is probably better here - partner likely has the clearer view of how well the hands fit.

 

On this hand it probably didn't matter which I picked - partner had a very good hand (something like KQ10xx A Axxx Axx), and after 3D (nat extras)-3H partner drove to the cold slam for a near-top.

 

ahydra

[mike777]

you have an adjusted loser hand of roughly 3.5=4

 

 

after splinter you look for grand.

 

 

surprised small slam is a top

 

would expect many to reach grand slam

[Lovera]

It's better first estabilish a fit (and in any case also two ones) thinking for a probable slam (yet to avoid interference by opp) than splinter (that could be used for value better by shape information own hand).

[Vampyr]

I prefer to splinter on a hand with 3 or 4 controls (or a monster that will bid on) because I like such a space-consuming bid to be very specific. HCP as criterion is not terribly useful, because you are not going to make those thin slams with queens and jacks.

 

This hand has 3 controls, but has the real possibility of making a slam on power/source of tricks. You do have an ace, a king and a singleton, but that is not your whole hand.

[KurtGodel]

A world class player I know often says when he is teaching weaker players he says you need three things to bid a slam: 1) Good trumps 2) A trick source 3) Good controls. We have all of those things, if we splinter we will never mention our trick source, if we bid 2NT we probably don't get to mention our trick source and partner won't be able to tell us things that are helpful (perhaps we will be warned off slam when he has heart shortage).

 

The main disadvantage of bidding 2♥, is that partner is unlikely to play us for 4 trumps, but if they are open to this you should be okay. Also, you make it considerably easier to bid grand if partner has a monster. So I will try 2♥. I like splinters a lot, but tend to bid them when I am 4441 or when my 5 card suit is only good to fill holes in partner's hand, rather than trying to build tricks for ourselves.

[aguahombre]

The main disadvantage of bidding 2♥, is that partner is unlikely to play us for 4 trumps, but if they are open to this you should be okay. Also, you make it considerably easier to bid grand if partner has a monster. So I will try 2♥. I like splinters a lot, but tend to bid them when I am 4441 or when my 5 card suit is only good to fill holes in partner's hand, rather than trying to build tricks for ourselves.

Yes. Plus, on this particular hand, we can still splinter -- after partner's 2S rebid, and still not overstating our overall strength; just painting a full picture.

[Phil]

Don't like the splinter at all. The heart suit may be the key to the hand - would partner move over 4♦ with Kxxxxx Axx xx Ax?

 

Obviously 2♥ could work, but 2N isn't terrible - we might discover a stiff club, or extras, and partner can cue the ♥A if we get into a slower auction.

[Lovera]

Don't like the splinter at all. The heart suit may be the key to the hand - would partner move over 4♦ with Kxxxxx Axx xx Ax?

 

Obviously 2♥ could work, but 2N isn't terrible - we might discover a stiff club, or extras, and partner can cue the ♥A if we get into a slower auction.

This hand ends in slam. For this aim is more indicate don't hide heart suit. About this situation - with an hand that have splinter bidding possibility already Benito Garozzo told - is better to bid 2♥. Fourthemore we can bid splinter subsequently. But yet if we don't splinter before RKC can bid after as answere to query for Q.

[Zelandakh]

It's better first estabilish a fit

 

This hand ends in slam. For this aim is more indicate don't hide heart suit.

Glad that is clear then! :lol: