druri ATB

[Fluffy]

[hv=pc=n&w=skj43hq5dt62ckj62&e=sa9752hat2daj98c5&d=w&v=0&b=8&a=pp1sp2c(druri%2010%2B%20with%20support)p2dp2sp3c(short%20suit%20try)p3sppp]266|200[/hv]

 

This was match points, yet +200 when hearts were frozen and ♠Q was doubleton was a very poor score.

[rhm]

I can see nothing wrong with West bidding.

As East you can see the scientist in action, so popular on this forum.

He does not care that his bidding might help opponents more than partner.

From East perspective it is hard to construct a hand where game will have little play but if there is an alternative to taking a final decisions this East will grab it.

I would have bid 4♠ over druri and yes East hand is worth much more than 13 HCP suggest. .

 

Rainer Herrmann

[Trinidad]

West has a full (albeit minimum) four card support limit raise. An old rule says that you should raise any limit raise to game if you have a singleton.

 

In this case, West knows that East has a singleton... the only problem is that he also knows it is in clubs and he has about the worst possible holding opposite that singleton.

 

I have full understanding for all the bids that were made. No blame. Poor scores happen...

 

Rik

[helene_t]

Good auction. 4S is a bit over the top at matchpoints.

[mike777]

don't think west has a 4 card limit raise...a mixed raise for me.

 

east will not accept mixed raise but accepts limit raise.

[MrAce]

1♠--2♣

4♠

[neilkaz]

1♠--2♣

4♠

Same here, no information leak to opps. Decent spots may add a trick or gain a trick on the lead.

[gszes]

I will say that actions by both E and W were reasonable within their system and no fault should be assessed. The E hand is pretty good but the ability to show a short club allows them to miss inferior games (especially at MP) and there seems to be no way for this partnership to tell the difference btn 3 and 4 card spade support which makes quite a difference. I would not bid game with the E hand (sorry RHM) I would defer to the science (note that if the west hand has only 3 spades and 3 hearts (vs 2) 4s is not a very good contract). Game of % some days you will bid a grand with ten trumps missing the trump Q and go down (that's life) sometimes the overbidders get lucky that's life:)

 

I would not be so harsh about the west hand since the 4th spade greatly increases the odds of making game and, with p short in clubs, the short heart is virtually certain to be worth at least 1 ruff (if not 2) but even that depends on how little opener needs to make a SSGT opposite your drury.

[rmnka447]

I'm with Mr. Ace and Rainer. If West has a limit raise, then East has enough to bid game. He who knows goes. 4 ♠ over Drury.

[wanoff]

I'm with Mr. Ace and Rainer. If West has a limit raise, then East has enough to bid game. He who knows goes. 4 ♠ over Drury.

 

You may well all be right, but as I've never played Drury perhaps I don't understand the intricacies.

Assuming 2♦ is some sort of natural game try, surely the 4th spade and a shortage are enough for West to bid 3♠.

The ♦10 is difficult to value but at least you have it and not the deathly xxx.

 

Should I start using Drury, and where might I find a good write up.

[helene_t]

2♦ is not a natural game try. It is a generic game try, or, you could say that it confirms a "real" opening as opposed to a 3rd seat subminimal opening.

 

2♣ doesn't show a limit raise. It could be less. 8 random HCPs plus a doubleton is surely enough. So I don't think E can bid game directly.

 

Yes you should start playing Drury, at least if your partner is happy to play it as well :) It is one of the greatest conventions out there. But obviously it depends if you can miss the natural 2♣ response by a passed hand. If you play a 14-16 nt and/or if you play 5-card majors then you don't need the natural 2♣ response. Otherwise you may consider using 2♦ as Drury (if you have a weak 2♦ opening in your system a passed hand is less likely to have a natural 2♦ response).

[wanoff]

Ok so 2♦ is artificial - I still have a max, 4 trumps and a shortage - 3♠

 

What's 1♠-2♣-2♥

[helene_t]

2♥ is natural, forcing, but I am not sure if it shows extras or not. Surely 2♠ by responder can now be passed so it can't show much extras but I don't think I would bid it if I had no game interest.

[cherdano]

I blame both. Over 2♦, West should show extras - the 4th trump is huge.

Obviously, East should bid game over 2♣. Three aces, shape, and AJ98.

[cherdano]

On another note, a strong player around here hates drury, because he has seen too many auctions

1S-2C (limit raise)

2D (full opening) 2S (I already showed my limit raise)

P (I already showed my full opening)

leading to +170. Indeed, people seem to bid 2S over 2D almost all the time. It seems better to play 2D = I would accept a real limit raise, over which 2S shows "Don't really have a full limit raise".

[Trinidad]

The problem with these last few posts is that Drury hasn't shown a limit raise since we started playing bridge over the internet about 20 years ago (and probably much longer than that, but I am too young :P).

 

Drury shows a good raise. That is a much wider range than a limit raise. West could have:

♠K43

♥Q53

♦T62

♣KJ62

 

and that would be a fine (as in: there are worse) 2♣ bid.

 

The problem bid in the auction is West's 2♠ bid. That is the bid that says: I only had a good raise, I don't have a limit raise (i.e. it it is the type of hand that I just showed). This is a matter of judgement. To me it is a borderline limit raise, to others it doesn't qualify.

 

Rik

[BillPatch]

My partnership would also miss this 52% MP game, as I perceive the hand a maximum single raise, and not a Drury raise. Opener is too strong not to go on opposite a Drury. It would only be a bad miss V at IMPS, so I guess I will loosen up my Drury definition in IMP play.

[Trinidad]

1♠--2♣

4♠

Score -100 when dummy comes down:

♠K43

♥Q53

♦T62

♣KJ62

 

Rik

[cherdano]

Drury shows a good raise.

Does it? I agree that's what it should show, but I think many assume it shows at least 10 hcp, or even a good 10.

[blackshoe]

For me, 2♣ shows 8 losers, a good 9 to a bad 12, and three trumps. With four trumps, I bid 2♦. So Rik's example is not, for me, a 2♣ bid. Like Bill, I consider it a decent raise to 2♠.

 

An alternative which I learned from a local expert, but have not played since he moved away, is:

 

2♣ shows four trumps, and some 6 to 12 points. A 2♠ rebid over opener's 2♦ shows the 6 to bad 9 range.

2♦ shows three trumps and a limit raise.

[rhm]

Score -100 when dummy comes down:

♠K43

♥Q53

♦T62

♣KJ62

 

Rik

It would never occur to me to bid Drury with this rubbish, though I agree the lower limit of Drury is slightly lower than of a limit raise, simply because you can stop at the two-level.

 

With

 

♠K43

♥Q53

♦T62

♣KJ62

 

your choices are between 1NT (non forcing) and 2♠.

This is a maximum raise only for point counters. I know there are plenty of those, who get never beyond that stage.

 

Rainer Herrmann

[Mbodell]

To me no blame, but I think West is closer to bidding on than East. East opens, West shows a 3 or 4 card good raise, East says I have a real opener, West says that's not enough, East says ok a better than min opener with short clubs, West says still not enough.

 

West could of counter tried with 3 red. I think East did more than enough. I don't fault West, but a 10 count, 4 trump, not 4333, all are good points, but kjxx of clubs are bad.

[steve2005]

Does it? I agree that's what it should show, but I think many assume it shows at least 10 hcp, or even a good 10.

Like most conventions people play it differently. For some Drury is a limit raise for many it can be a good raise.

[KurtGodel]

I don't think anybody went wrong on this board. I think bidding 4♠ on this hand is a bit rich. Would be willing to bet that if someone ran a sim, game would make less than half the time, even playing this variant of Drury showing 10+. Three aces and a stiff are nice, but where are you going to park your heart losers? Partner might produce Qxx of trumps, and now most of the time game will have no play. He also rates to have most of his values in clubs, why gamble when you can just ask partner for his opinion, especially since we can show the key feature to our hand (club shortage).

[rhm]

Good auction. 4S is a bit over the top at matchpoints.

I will say that actions by both E and W were reasonable within their system and no fault should be assessed. The E hand is pretty good but the ability to show a short club allows them to miss inferior games (especially at MP) and there seems to be no way for this partnership to tell the difference btn 3 and 4 card spade support which makes quite a difference. I would not bid game with the E hand (sorry RHM) I would defer to the science (note that if the west hand has only 3 spades and 3 hearts (vs 2) 4s is not a very good contract). Game of % some days you will bid a grand with ten trumps missing the trump Q and go down (that's life) sometimes the overbidders get lucky that's life:)

 

I would not be so harsh about the west hand since the 4th spade greatly increases the odds of making game and, with p short in clubs, the short heart is virtually certain to be worth at least 1 ruff (if not 2) but even that depends on how little opener needs to make a SSGT opposite your drury.

To me no blame, but I think West is closer to bidding on than East. East opens, West shows a 3 or 4 card good raise, East says I have a real opener, West says that's not enough, East says ok a better than min opener with short clubs, West says still not enough.

 

West could of counter tried with 3 red. I think East did more than enough. I don't fault West, but a 10 count, 4 trump, not 4333, all are good points, but kjxx of clubs are bad.

I am always surprised how many otherwise good players exhibit poor hand evaluation.

They seem never to have grasped anything beyond simple point count they learned as a beginner.

But rarely have I read so much poor Bridge advice in a single thread.

We either play a different game or we are looking at different East hands.

 

I don't think anybody went wrong on this board. I think bidding 4♠ on this hand is a bit rich. Would be willing to bet that if someone ran a sim, game would make less than half the time, even playing this variant of Drury showing 10+. Three aces and a stiff are nice, but where are you going to park your heart losers? Partner might produce Qxx of trumps, and now most of the time game will have no play. He also rates to have most of his values in clubs, why gamble when you can just ask partner for his opinion, especially since we can show the key feature to our hand (club shortage).

Good idea.

Since I have the necessary simulation software for the benefit of you I did a simulation.

I was not interested how East-West would fare if West has a limit raise. I did not check what might happen if West is unbalanced.

I know that. Slam might make on a good day.

I gave West 8-9 HCP and a balanced 4 card raise. This means West must be 4432 or 4333 with at most one ace, so less than what most would consider a limit raise.

Let's call it a maximum single raise or a mixed raise. If West has less he should not abuse Drury but simply raise to 2♠.

Could I be more generous to you?

 

1000 random deals:

 

Result:

Average number of tricks for East in 4♠: 10.01

4♠ made double dummy on 739 deals.

So game makes 74% of the time even opposite a minimum Drury West hand.

 

Now I am aware few players will change their mind because of a simple simulation.

It is so much easier to go into denial mode than accepting reality.

 

Rainer Herrmann