Who's to Blame?

[masonbarge]

Real hand, real disaster!

 

No hints about which one I am, since the point is to learn something.

 

IMPs (Pairs)

 

[hv=pc=n&w=sq74ha75dj973ca97&e=sj963hk8dkqt5cq53&d=e&v=e&b=6&a=pp1d2hdp2sp3sppp]266|200[/hv]

[billw55]

Looking at each call:

 

East first pass: agree.

West 1♦: disagree. With 3343, scattered honors, and not much spots, I would pass. Opening doesn't bother me much though.

East double: agree

West 2♠: disagree. I would choose 2NT, and on the actual hands, expect east to bid 3♦ and play it there.

East 3♠: agree. With an apparent double fit, invite seems normal.

 

So, perhaps some blame to west. Still, this is far from the worst contract I have seen. You aren't even doubled, and 3♦ will fare about the same on many layouts. Personally I would find bigger fish to fry, but I am pretty easygoing.

 

 

edit: per mrace below, I see now that east had a good alternative to 3♠. This tends to reinforce my conclusion that this hand is not really a big deal, except perhaps to an experienced and serious partnership.

[MrAce]

We can bitch and complain about 1♦ opening by W. Or complain about why E did not open, which turned out to be a good decision on this hand. I would not have opened myself. But at the end of the day it is a matter of opening style. So if we skip the opening part, I do not see anything wrong by W. Bidding 2♠ with 3 card is perfectly normal. Imo, E should bid 2 NT or 3♦. I know X does not mean % 100 4 card spades but bidding 3♦ or 2 NT after X shows 4 card ♠, since E could start 3♦ or 2 NT without spades.

 

If X promised spades % 100 of the time, it only supports my argument about bidding of east player.

 

Having said all of this, I have sympathy for E. He made a move with minimum info to opponents. He tried to hide his shape and fit to diamonds while inviting. It did not work out well. Although I believe he could have been more specific to pd so that he can judge better, I wouldn't make a huge deal out of it.

[NickRW]

I second what Mr Ace said - except I am not relaxed about opening flat, structureless 11 counts with indifferent spots.

[wank]

yes i dislike the opening.

 

double as a passed hand must have 4♠ so east should have bid 3♦ over 2♠.

[Cyberyeti]

If I was going to open one of the hands, it would be E (and in my hands auction would be 1N-P-P-P, I don't tend to invite with a 3343 11 without great intermediates, and opening a weak 1N in 3rd with the W hand is just asking for -1100).

 

Otherwise MrAce pretty much nails it.

[perko90]

There's no way I would open the E hand and I don't mind the W 3rd seat opener.

2♠ by W is unpleasant, but necessary.

E 3♠ raise is a mistake. 2NT or 3♦ are both better.

[mikeh]

While I am largely in agreement with Timo, I do think that he is being too kind to the opening bid by West.

 

West has every reason in the world to say pass. He has no playable suit, and he opens the one suit which he most wants partner to avoid leading!

 

Light 3rd seat openings are quite appropriate but should be made only when one wants the lead, or one wants to pre-empt, or one wants to suggest competing.

 

Opening 1m light is particularly poor absent a good suit, since it actually functions as an anti-pre-empt. It is not uncommon, when holding a horrible 11 or 12 count in 3rd seat, for 4th seat to hold a hand that is a clear overcall in a major and yet not worth a 4th seat opening bid. By opening Jxxx 1♦, one allows the opps into an auction, in a major, when the hand would otherwise be passed out.

 

That isn't to say one never opens light in a minor in 3rd, but it is to say that one needs good reason to do so. A good suit, ideally with some shape, would amount to such reason.

 

In 3rd seat, we have no game to protect, and this hand is so awful that we may get too high if partner has a 10-11 count, we don't want a diamond lead, and we don't want to make life easy for the opps.

 

As for the auction, I think the 2♠ is fine. Bidding 2N with this piece of crap, and the single stop and no tricks is insane. 2N ought to be a decent playing hand.

 

East can't pass because game is still available. However, I think the lack of a heart raise on his left should sound a note of caution....partner will not be short in hearts and may therefore have poor shape. I would bid 3♦. That cannot be purely an attempt to play in diamonds, else we would not have doubled. It shows good cards, else we'd pass 2♠, and is therefore, imo, a perfect description of the hand.

[PhantomSac]

Yeah opening 3rd r/w with this hand just sucks.

[lycier]

I think this loos like a system problem.

As opening at 3rd,light opening is also allowed,for this hand,it is allowed for W to open 1♦ with 11hcp and two quick tricks even though 4333-too flat .

If 1♦ can promise 4+card,the problem may be solved in this hand,for example,after double,W can bid 2nt,then E rebid 3♦.

If 1♦ only promise 3+card,it is not easy to handle with this hand,so maybe it is an option for W not to open with 4333 shapes.

[Taiwan_up]

E must bid 3D to show his good support and pts, that's the best bid.

 

2NT is bad because E has many of his big cards in diamonds although he has 11HCP and a stopper in Hearts.

 

Dbl is to ask for another suit which is most probably spade so W must have 3 support to bid 2S.

 

When only 22pts(11+11) and 7spades are promised E has no 3S to bid.

 

W is smart to open with not good 11 because pass is worse bid to lose score. What's more, W is smarter to try spades by 2S. Still, 3D is the best bid. E must be a novice to be blamed.

[rhm]

Bidding 2♠ with 3 card is perfectly normal. Imo, E should bid 2 NT or 3♦. I know X does not mean % 100 4 card spades but bidding 3♦ or 2 NT after X shows 4 card ♠, since E could start 3♦ or 2 NT without spades.

 

If X promised spades % 100 of the time, it only supports my argument about bidding of east player.

 

Having said all of this, I have sympathy for E. He made a move with minimum info to opponents. He tried to hide his shape and fit to diamonds while inviting. It did not work out well. Although I believe he could have been more specific to pd so that he can judge better, I wouldn't make a huge deal out of it.

I mostly agree, but I think bidding 2♠ on 3 cards should be a last resort.

4333 (no ruffing value) is unattractive for such a move, since the 4-3 fit is unlikely to play well and bidding spades is most likely to excite partner.

It is only normal in the sense that 2♠ superficially looks attractive as the cheapest available bid.

Better to show a weak notrump and rebid 2NT here.

 

Rainer Herrmann

[fourdad]

First error rules/

Opening the 1♦ is a mistake, imo, but so much deoends on agreements.

[daffydoc]

Am somewhat amused by those who feel E should not raise spades - would not occur to me to not raise spades once W bids them. As in another recent post I think vulnerability plays a huge role - West knows his side is likely outgunned most of the time - and red vs white it is not going to help to open - as another poster said may just help opp find a major fit they would have passed out. All in all I assign most of the blame to West A- for opening B- for bidding 2S with 3 card suit and NO ruffing values

daffydoc

[Phil]

1. Opening a textureless 4333 11 in 3rd r/w isn't sound. You don't have a game and you are telling on your hand when you don't buy it and probably going set when you do.

 

2. double is normal.

 

3. Much prefer 2N with 3343 than 2♠. This time we even have a heart stop!

 

4. East's only transgression is 3♠. I much prefer 3♦. It helps partner evaluate if partner has a full opening bid, and it might be a good landing spot if partner doesn't.

[neilkaz]

1. Opening a textureless 4333 11 in 3rd r/w isn't sound. You don't have a game and you are telling on your hand when you don't buy it and probably going set when you do.

 

2. double is normal.

 

3. Much prefer 2N with 3343 than 2♠. This time we even have a heart stop!

 

4. East's only transgression is 3♠. I much prefer 3♦. It helps partner evaluate if partner has a full opening bid, and it might be a good landing spot if partner doesn't.

 

Exactly this and I'll stress how bad opening here is. In spite of two aces this is nothing resembling a good 11 count. A ♦ lead isn't desired and as we saw, there's always issues in comp. when PD takes your opening seriously.

[Cyberyeti]

3. Much prefer 2N with 3343 than 2♠. This time we even have a heart stop!

 

May not be available, I certainly don't play 2N natural here (but that's a lot easier in a weak NT context), if you play 2N as minimum natural, it makes some strong hands very difficult to bid.

[rmnka447]

I'm in line with a lot of the other comments here.

 

I wouldn't open the West hand in third seat. 2 ♠ is the least of all evils once East doubles. 3 ♦ stands out as East rebid over 2 ♠. I agree with Mr. Ace and mikeh about 3 ♦ showing more than ♦ and showing invitational values. As one now gone expert player used to say "Bid when you've got." Here bidding 3 ♦ tells partner about the double "fit" and invitational values of your hand. Whatever partner does next is more likely to be right because of that information.

[masonbarge]

Thanks to everyone who responded. Very helpful to both me and my partner.

[mikestar13]

I nominate West's 1♦ opening as the worst bid. Yes he is 3rd seat, but is red vs white, has a a bad 11, and has a bad diamond suit. The reasoning for light 3rd seat openings is much like the reasoning for overcalls:

 

1. Could there be a game our way? Not on an answered prayer, especially if the partnership deems East's initial pass borderline.

2. Could we make a partial? A low one if the enemy allows us to.

3. Will I obstruct their auction? I might even help them.

4. Will we find a paying sacrifice? I don't even ask this with indifferent flat hands.

5. Do I want a diamond lead? If I think I do, I've peeked at partner's hand.

 

I don't mean the harshness that the sarcasm implies--it would be intended if the players involved were (self-styled) world class experts. :)

 

Out of curiosity, how bad did 3♠ get hurt and how would they have done in hearts?

[rhm]

I nominate West's 1♦ opening as the worst bid. Yes he is 3rd seat, but is red vs white, has a a bad 11, and has a bad diamond suit. The reasoning for light 3rd seat openings is much like the reasoning for overcalls:

 

1. Could there be a game our way? Not on an answered prayer, especially if the partnership deems East's initial pass borderline.

 

2. Could we make a partial? A low one if the enemy allows us to.

3. Will I obstruct their auction? I might even help them.

4. Will we find a paying sacrifice? I don't even ask this with indifferent flat hands.

5. Do I want a diamond lead? If I think I do, I've peeked at partner's hand.

I beg to differ.

My experience opening the bidding in third seat at any colors and scoring on any excuse has shown a clear profit over the years, sometimes in unexpected ways.

Profit means that other tables passed with my hand.

Giving a free run to my opponents or worse coming in later did not.

So it is usually the last chance for your side to contest

How do you like it when third seat opens the bidding when you hold a strong hand in fourth seat?

Of course the corollary to my approach is, that a passed hand does not get stronger simply because he passed already and Drury is one of favorite conventions.

 

So I feel this critic is very much colored by the actual result. Here a 3♦ contract for your side does not look like a calamity to me.

3♦ for us, maybe on less than double dummy defense, and 2♥ for them making is a likely outcome.

 

Rainer Herrmann

[Smiles3usa]

Like most others, I don’t like W opening in 3rd seat with the flat 11 HCP hand. That said, it is not a serious error, but a matter of style. I take E’s double to mean 10+ HCP, 4♠︎, which rather accurately describes the hand. W’s 2♠︎ bid is in error, because he has a more descriptive bid of his hand. From my perspective 2NT would describe the hand — and he would not lose out on the ♠︎ bid if P had 5♠︎. (P has the 3♣︎ checkbook bid available to ask for 3♠︎) If one is going to open a light hand, he must be willing to continue to bid it — not overbid it, but bid it as if the opening was correct! 2♠︎ miscommunicates the shape of the hand to p. I find no fault with E’s 3♠︎ bid, he has 4 pieces and 11HCP. N has shown a weak bid, so E could incorrectly assume that P has a full opener…in such cases it would be error not to support p’s bid.

 

If W is to open 1♦︎, I think the bidding should go: 1♦︎-2♥︎-X-p-2NT-p-3♦︎-p-p-p

 

In sum, the fault lies not in the stars, or in E's bidding but in W's continual misrepresentation of his hand (first in opening then in 2♠)

[shermangao]

East sucks, west did nothing wrong,, 2S is only choose after the dbl, east should correct to 3D after 2S, somebody talk about 2N, that's a poor bid after a neg dbl, for me it shows at least 16+( to encourage partner make more aggressive neg dbl). 2S just say I was forced to bid and that's what I can say. Yes it could be 4 but if I have only 3 I maybe have to bid it. 2N and 3 C/D require more.

[Zelandakh]

Phil and Rainer's posts are probably a good summary. The opening bid is wrong but not as bad as many are making out. It was the combination of this with the further inaccuracies of 2♠ and 3♠ that ended up being slightly too much.

[Zelandakh]

As an extra aside, the "best" opening bid fro West here was probably 1♥. That probably shuts North out on the first round and then it goes 1♠ - p - p back. E-W have thus disrupted the auction at low risk. It may not be to the taste of the gallery but I use gambits of this type quite often within an Acol context, with mixed results but a general trend similar to that that Rainer reports. Admittedly I would probably not have found it on this hand though...