Bidding disaster: what to learn from this one

[Chamaco]

[hv=d=s&v=e&n=sj87hqt83d63c7643&w=sq2hak6dj954ckj52&e=sat953h972dkt7ca8&s=sk64hj54daq82cqt9]399|300|Scoring: MP

S....W....N....E

1D...p....p....1S

p....1NT all pass[/hv]

 

S opened a better minor 1D.

 

West did not feel like her hcp content would justify an offshape t/o double.

 

East (me), felt that his 11 hcp hand would not justify a double followed by new suit (had I held an extra K, I might have doubled).

So I bid 1S.

 

West could not bid 2NT: that would be a conventional strong 4 card raise.

Also, a cuebid would have shown a balanced limit+ raise in spades.

 

So, she did not know what to bid: bidding 3NT would have been an overbid if my 1S balancing bid had come from, say, a 9 hcp hand.

But, there was no forcing bid available (2NT and the cue being artificial raise).

 

I thought of employing 1NT forcing opposite pard's 1M overcall, but it is not clear how the overcall should respond to clarify his strength/shape.

 

I'd appreciate comments on the specific hand AND on the specific systemic issue.

 

Ty all ! :D

[EricK]

If you are going to use two different artificial raises then you might as well make them the cuebid and the jump cuebid and keep 2NT as natural.

 

Eric

[mike777]

Stop playing 2nt as conv. strong raise with 4 cards when you are overcalling, use cuebid and then rebid. Here west has passed over 1D, so just bid 2nt as strong invite to 3nt.

 

West first pass ok

East 1s Ok, other choice is 2s(not weak but int) not x and rebid but 1S is fine but you are max for 1s.

[Chamaco]

If you are going to use two different artificial raises then you might as well make them the cuebid and the jump cuebid and keep 2NT as natural.

 

Eric

 

The jump-cue is a 4 card mixed raise; jump shifts are FitShowing raises.

I am using the system proposed by Robson-Segal: can it be so bad ? :D

[bestguru]

Probably not the best option, but you could just treat 1nt over 1m just as you would a 11-14 nt opening.

 

For this hand it works:

 

1♦ 1nt p 2♥ p 2♠ p 2nt p 3nt

[whereagles]

If you can't use a natural 2NT or 2D cue, the only option left is a forcing 2C bid, intending to follow up with 2NT. If 2D/2NT always show raises, then 2C MUST be forcing, otherwise you'll be stuck for a bid on a hand like this.

 

Note that there isn't so much urgency in using the Robson fit-showing bids after a balancing bid because opps already missed a chance to show fit. Because of this, you might want to leave at least the 2NT as natural, bal 13-14.

[HeartA]

Stop playing 2nt as conv. strong raise with 4 cards when you are overcalling, use cuebid and then rebid. Here west has passed over 1D, so just bid 2nt as strong invite to 3nt.

 

West first pass ok

East 1s Ok, other choice is 2s(not weak but int) not x and rebid but 1S is fine but you are max for 1s.

Agree.

[Chamaco]

Probably not the best option, but you could just treat 1nt over 1m just as you would a 11-14 nt opening.

Option already taken: we use 1NT as "Raptor" = 4M+longer minor, opening hand strength :-)

[inquiry]

If you are going to use two different artificial raises then you might as well make them the cuebid and the jump cuebid and keep 2NT as natural.

 

Eric

 

The jump-cue is a 4 card mixed raise; jump shifts are FitShowing raises.

I am using the system proposed by Robson-Segal: can it be so bad ? :D

I love 2NT as four card good raise. However, after a balancing 1M bid, the jump to 2NT as conventional raise maynot be best. The reasaon being, I overcall four card majors (when takeout double is not right bid) with goodish hands. Thus most, if not all of the hands I might want to bid 2NT on are already "eliminated". The kind of strong hand you will have in this position will be hands with "their suit". Otherwise you woud have bid immediately. The hands just too light for 1NT overcall, and the hands that you hoped your partner would reopen with a double.

 

So one thought it to go back and let 2NT be what it sounds like, based upon frequency issues.

 

A second thought is if partner can only muster a non-forcing new suit in the balancing seat, what should 1NT show? IF you had balanced 8 or 9, should you bid 1NT? Is 1NT used primary to improve the contract (no fit for partner) or to try to get higher? At MP, it is reasonble to play 1NT as attempt to improve the contract but at imps, if you are light with stuff in their suit, maybe it is best to play the (perhaps) non-ideal 1 of a major rather than bid 1NT to improve the partscore, and save 1NT for hands that have some game hope opposite a misfit in the major. I think 1NT should be 11 points to maybe 14 if 2NT is not available. and good 9 to 11 if 2NT is natural.

 

Finally, Robson/Segal use direct raises as preempts, but lets look at the auction...

 

1C-P-P-1S

P

 

Both oppenents have now passed. Is it reasonable that 3S be preemptive here? Another reason to maybe reconsider the use of 2NT as the good raise. There is no need to cast problems here. Also, 2M should be game try rather than light per se.

 

Something to think about at least.

 

Ben

[Chamaco]

I love 2NT as four card good raise. However, after a balancing 1M bid, the jump to 2NT as conventional raise maynot be best.

Ben, one more question.

 

Assume 1S is NOT a balancing bid.

 

Try this example:

 

Now NORTH (not south) opens 1D.

You hold Wests cards.

 

N......E......S......W

1D....1S....p.......?

 

 

In this situation, East has overcalled in the DIRECT seat, he is not balancing.

What is the right bid for West according to R-S?

 

NOT 2NT

NOT a cue

NOT a jumpcue.

 

Do you suggest using a 2/1 as forcing (e.g. 2C artificial as suggested by whereagles)?

Would u use 1NT forcing (and what could be the best followup, e.g. what wd be overcaller's obligations to show/deny opening hand strength as well as showing shape)?

[inquiry]

I love 2NT as four card good raise. However, after a balancing 1M bid, the jump to 2NT as conventional raise maynot be best.

Ben, one more question.

 

Assume 1S is NOT a balancing bid.

 

Try this example:

 

Now NORTH opens 1D.

You hold Wests cards.

 

N......E......S......W

1D....1S....p.......?

 

 

In this situation, East has overcalled in the DIRECT seat, he is not balancing.

What is the right bid for West according to R-S?

 

NOT 2NT

NOT a cue

NOT a jumpcue.

 

Do you suggest using a 2/1 as forcing (e.g. 2C artificial as suggested by whereagles)?

Would u use 1NT forcing (and what could be the best followup, e.g. what wd be overcaller's obligations to show/deny opening hand strength as well as showing shape)?

Absolutely....

I love R/S.

[EricK]

I don't have my copy of RS handy, but don't they allow the cue to also include various GF hands in places where a new suit would be NF?

 

Eric

[inquiry]

Do you suggest using a 2/1 as forcing (e.g. 2C artificial as suggested by whereagles)?

Would u use 1NT forcing (and what could be the best followup, e.g. what wd be overcaller's obligations to show/deny opening hand strength as well as showing shape)?

I still use 2NT to show fit even after balancing bid at one level... guess I am lazy.

 

I use 1NT here, to show good hand, much stronger than normal, and as a game try. This way if partner is looking at 6 points for his balance we are at 1NT, not 2NT or higher. So on your example hand, I would bid 1NT and with a sound 1♠ bid I would raise to 2NT, game is then bid without further ado.

 

And no, if I bid 2♣ instead of 1NT, that is not forcing. How can I possible have a good enough suit and points to force opposite a balance bid and not have overcalled to begin with?

 

Ben

[Chamaco]

I use 1NT here, to show good hand, much stronger than normal, and as a game try. This way if partner is looking at 6 points for his balance we are at 1NT, not 2NT or higher.  So on your example hand, I would bid 1NT and with a sound 1♠ bid I would raise to 2NT, game is then bid without further ado.

 

And no, if I bid 2♣ instead of 1NT, that is not forcing. How can I possible have a good enough suit and points to force opposite a balance bid and not have overcalled to begin with?

 

Ben

So what do u bid with a balanced 9 hcp + stopper opposite pard's overcall ?

 

In many posts I have read of the modern tendency ov overcalling rather than doubling when holding a 5c Major and 16-17 without special features: in order to protect such hands I guess advancer should be able to bid 1NT with a balanced 9-10 count without 3 card support ? :unsure:

 

I suppose 1NT should be used for such hands, but then again, the strong game try without support misses a reasonable bid...

 

I think one solution may be to use 1NT as forcing:

if it is the 8-9 bal hand, advancer will probably pass any normal opener rebid (or preference to 2M).

if it is the bal game try, advancer will rebid 2NT invitational natural.

if it is a long minor oriented strong hand (too strong for a NF 2m), advancer will rebid 3m.

[whereagles]

Hum.. I think you guys are going off-track. Mauro's problem might be solved by changing his system, but there are alternatives like using the forcing and (shock horror) natural 2C bid :unsure:

 

I'll agree 2NT as artificial might not be the best here, but the error came from a judgement failure, not a system hole.

[TimG]

Hum.. I think you guys are going off-track. Mauro's problem might be solved by changing his system, but there are alternatives like using the forcing and (shock horror) natural 2C bid :unsure:

 

I'll agree 2NT as artificial might not be the best here, but the error came from a judgement failure, not a system hole.

How can 2C be forcing? West passed over 1D, so he can't have that much, and east simply balanced.

[TimG]

[hv=d=s&v=e&n=sj87hqt83d63c7643&w=sq2hak6dj954ckj52&e=sat953h972dkt7ca8&s=sk64hj54daq82cqt9]399|300|Scoring: MP

S....W....N....E

1D...p....p....1S

p....1NT all pass[/hv]

Notice that if you switch the ♦K and ♦6, west can still make 3N; I think west was too conservative (given the system restrictions) and should have just bid 3N.

 

Tim

[whereagles]

Tim: if you want to play Robson raises after balancing, you have to have some natural forcing bids to use when there's no fit. Especially playing Raptor.

 

Otherwise you can't to bid hands like that without guessing.

[inquiry]

Hum.. I think you guys are going off-track. Mauro's problem might be solved by changing his system, but there are alternatives like using the forcing and (shock horror) natural 2C bid :unsure:

 

I'll agree 2NT as artificial might not be the best here, but the error came from a judgement failure, not a system hole.

How can 2C be forcing? West passed over 1D, so he can't have that much, and east simply balanced.

Absolutely correct, 2♣ is not forcing. 100% clear.

[whereagles]

Absolutely wrong, and absolutely clear... lol.

 

Ok, it should logically be forcing, but since the 2C bidder is limited by not doubling 1st round, in practice it is not.

[inquiry]

I use 1NT here, to show good hand, much stronger than normal, and as a game try. This way if partner is looking at 6 points for his balance we are at 1NT, not 2NT or higher.  So on your example hand, I would bid 1NT and with a sound 1♠ bid I would raise to 2NT, game is then bid without further ado.

 

And no, if I bid 2♣ instead of 1NT, that is not forcing. How can I possible have a good enough suit and points to force opposite a balance bid and not have overcalled to begin with?

 

Ben

So what do u bid with a balanced 9 hcp + stopper opposite pard's overcall ?

 

In many posts I have read of the modern tendency ov overcalling rather than doubling when holding a 5c Major and 16-17 without special features: in order to protect such hands I guess advancer should be able to bid 1NT with a balanced 9-10 count without 3 card support ? :unsure:

 

I suppose 1NT should be used for such hands, but then again, the strong game try without support misses a reasonable bid...

 

I think one solution may be to use 1NT as forcing:

if it is the 8-9 bal hand, advancer will probably pass any normal opener rebid (or preference to 2M).

if it is the bal game try, advancer will rebid 2NT invitational natural.

if it is a long minor oriented strong hand (too strong for a NF 2m), advancer will rebid 3m.

While I overcall with 15-16 and the suit I bid (and actually more too), my balance in a simple suit at the one level will never be as strong as 15. I will jump to two of the suit with that much. Even 14 is too much, and even some good 13 is too much for the simple balance. I will often bid 1NT without a stopper in balance seat with hand with 13 pts and no clear suit to jump in to the two level.

 

The rule I use is that I will balance with some 7hcp up to about 13 in a suit. 14 points is too much, and if my suit is fair, 13 is too much. So with 9 hcp and no fit, guess what, pass comes to mind. I don't try to "Fix the contract." I am in no rush to bid a good suit of my own either if I don't fit.

 

If you make simple balancing bids with 15-16 points, you really need to use 2NT as natural.

 

Ben

[HeartA]

Notice that if you switch the ♦K and ♦6, west can still make 3N; I think west was too conservative (given the system restrictions) and should have just bid 3N.

 

Tim

Agree. With the agreement of E-W, West didn't have much choice but 3NT.

[Chamaco]

If you make simple balancing bids with 15-16 points, you really need to use 2NT as natural.

 

Ben

Sorry Ben,

I realize the issue becomes confusing.

 

I was advocating the use of 1NT forcing when responding to a direct overcall, not to a balance.

In this situation, advancer faces the same problem as outlined in the real hand (when 1S was in the balancing seat).

 

So:

 

(1D)-1S-(p)-?

 

Here advancer need anyway to be able to show:

 

a. 9-10 balanced, max 2 cvards support

b. balanced game try, looking for game if overcaller has opening strength.

 

 

I was suggesting that employing 1NT forcing by advancer, it is possible to handle both without altering RS system of raises while still keeping 2/1 bids as Non forcing.

 

 

But I appreciated a lot all the specific insight on balancing issues. :-)

 

-------------------------------------------

 

An aside: from the practical viewpoint, I cannot afford to overload my pard's memory with a system of raises that varies according to whether overcaller is in direct or balancing seat.

 

I do understand the efficiency of this, but that would simply be overkill: my pard has a hard time remembering many other things, I think it is importante to keep the meaning of bids the same, just adjusting the strength based on the light balancing requirements.

[whereagles]

Actually, Robson-Segal never mention whether for them

 

1C 1H pass 2D

 

is forcing or not.

 

But it is simple to infer that it has to be forcing because there's no way to bid strongish hands if it's NF.

 

Also, I agree one should try and not overload pard with varying methods. However, this is a case where one has to think whether the lack of forcing bids isn't going to make the system unplayable. You can try and dump all the strong hands into a forcing 1NT after overcall/balance, but that is not mnemonic with a forcing 1NT after opening 1M. I mean..

 

1C 1H pass 1NT = forcing. Strong if advancer rebids new suit.

1H pass 1NT = forcing. Weak if advancer rebids new suit.

 

So... I think it's just better to play 2/1 after overcall/balance as natural and forcing for 1 round. You may make it NF if RHO acts (because game is unlikely in that case).

[inquiry]

Actually, Robson-Segal never mention whether for them

 

1C 1H pass 2D

 

is forcing or not.

 

But it is simple to infer that it has to be forcing because there's no way to bid strongish hands if it's NF.

Clearly a new suit by advancer should be forcing. Robson/Segal show a few auctions where a new suit by advancer is forcing (usng the word "forcing") after the new suit bid.

 

Ben