Analyze this: Forcing Pass

[pclayton]

We had a moose last night; 65% with two cold zeros. Here's the 2nd: [hv=d=n&v=n&n=saxhakjtxxdacat9x&s=sjxxhxxxxxdxxckqx]133|200|Scoring: MP[/hv]

 

North.....East.....South.....West

2♣....2♠....Dbl.....Pass

3♥.....4♦....4♥....4♠

Pass....Pass....Double....Pass

5♦.....Pass....5♥.....Pass

Pass.....5♠....Double....All pass.

 

2♣ shows 4-5 losers, 5 + controls and typically 19-21; but can shade HCP a lot with the right hand.

 

Double shows cards, without a biddable suit.

 

We got 5♠ - 1 when I tried to underlead my ♥AK for a ♦ ruff, but you can throw 6♥ against the wall.

 

Please discuss the auction, most notably my pard's 2 doubles, and the forcing pass and pull.

 

I realize that my 2♣ opener is probably borderline for our 2♦ opener.

 

Thank you.

[hotShot]

I play a similar treatment with 4-5 loosers, so i know the problem you ran into here.

 

2[cl][space][space][space][space][space]- 2[sp][space][space]- dbl[space][space](1) - pass
3[he][space][space][space][space][space]- 4[di][space][space]- 4[he][space][space][space](2) - 4[sp]
pass(3)- pass- dbl[space][space](4) - pass
5[di][space][space](5)- 5[sp][space][space]- dbl[space][space](6) - pass

 

(1) Does this show HCP or ♥, i guess 7-8 HCP 1 Control

(2) Guess this only shows 2-3 card support

(3) If you don't show your ♣ now, your partner can hardly judge right.

(4) Is this take out or penalty?

(5) Guess this is a cue bid

(6) Due to the lack of information not the best bid.

 

You gave away the one level, to make your partner bid, opps took the 2 level, and you ran out of bidding space. This problem can only be solved with agreements how to describe the hands best. And you must define the target, meaning: Will your side be declarer or not?

 

You showed a onesuited hand with 4 looser, but you hold a 2 suited hand. Your gave the impression of defence tricks, when you passed 4♠. You can't expect to make your ♥'s since LHO showed a ♠&♣ hand. You are much better playing yourself. With partners h♥ support, you most likely lost another looser.

Only if your partner knows that you have a second suit, he can make a right decision.

If you bid ♣ as a second suit, your partner can realize that he's got 3 tricks for you. And make the right decision.

[mike777]

Congrats on your huge game.

 

Standard is to play pass and pull as a giant hand; that means partner knows you got extras.

 

One can debate opening 2 clubs, 3.5 loser hand with 4 aces seems a bit strong for your stated agreement. His first double and second are great, what else?

 

His final bid is very tough at the table, do you need spade help or clubs? Should he play you for ace or very short spades? If you say you have 4-5 loser hand, that will give me pause. Perhaps open 1h and rebid clubs or use your stronger opening bid?

 

I could see you just bidding 6 assuming P has useful cards or I can see partner just bidding 6 assuming his clubs are key, but he is concerned he has already bid them with his first double. Tough hand.

 

Sometimes preempts work.

[inquiry]

North.....East.....South.....West

2♣....2♠....Dbl.....Pass

3♥.....4♦....4♥....4♠

Pass....Pass....Double....Pass

5♦.....Pass....5♥.....Pass

Pass.....5♠....Double....All pass.

Ok, clearly pass over 4♠ was forcing, and equally clearly bidding 5♦ over 4♠X was a slam try. But why didn't north bid 5♣ over 4♠X.. seems to me 5♦ should deny a club control.

 

In a forcing pass situation, you have to know the rules. We all know that....

 

(4♠)-5♥ is weaker than pass then pull double to 5♥, but how do you play the immeidate cuebids as opposed to the forcing pass then cue-bid...

 

(4♠)-Pass-(Pass)-dBl-(pass)-5♦

(4♠)-5♦ Which do you play as "stronger"

 

I play the forcing pass followed by the cue-bid as stronger of the two ways to get to 5♦. So I like the pass of 4♠, and then cue-bid. But I have no idea why the cue-bid was diamonds. In fact, I would have bid 4NT over the double showing the most difficult control to show, in this case, a spade control (if I wanted to ask keycards I would not have passed). PArtern would cue-bid club king, and the auction continued from there.

 

Over intefrence I use double to show two+ useful. I consider KQ together in an offsuit two cards. So first double is fine for me. The forcing pass over 4♠ is most outstanding. The second double was well executed. With FIVE TRUMPS, and knowing partner has at least five hearts this is somewhat difficult double to make. But the fact is responder has an absolute minimum (the two plus useful cards promised), and three spades. Even the spade jack might be useful on defense, but is useless on offense. The only thing in support of bidding on is the fifth heart.

[cherdano]

I don't understand 5♦. If you don't have Ben's delicate 4NT cue available, why not cue ♣A? As this cannot be a shortness cue, this would tell reponders his ♣KQ are 2 full tricks, and he might re-invite with 5♦. Opposite 4 losers, he has two certain tricks, and his 5th trumps or his diamond shortness might be another cover card. So then he might try for 6? Given 5♦, I would certainly lack the courage to try for a 26hcp slam.

 

Arend

[mike777]

After pass and pull the hand I am worried about is:

 

XX=AKQJXXX=AX=AX OR XX=AKQJXXX=A=AXX.

[pclayton]

1. By agreement, 4N is a TAB.

 

2. Yeah I should bid 5C. I never considered the ramifications of 5C vs 5D. At the time I thought that the cue of their suit after a FP would be thr strongest message I could send.

 

3. I should risk 6H.

Pards hand is a good example of a perfect minimum.

[cherdano]

By the way, if this was your worst auction (let's get this straight: it's about missing a slam in a highly contested auction after a very close down-grading decision with the opening bid, and both partners having had close decisions to bid the slam at the end of the auction), you truly deserved your 65% game, congrats!

[TimG]

My first reaction to the auction was that north shouldn't have opened 2♣, but then I read about your treatment: I agree with your decision. But, I'd still like to be able to open 1♥ rather than have to start with an artificial bid.

 

I think north should bid 5♣ over 4♠. Yes, pass and pull is a slam try, but 5♣ must be a slam try, too (it can't suggest playing 5♣) and is much more helpful to partner.

 

I don't like south's double of 4♠. I think the five trumps are enough undisclosed offense to demand bidding on. Once you decide to bid rather than double, you might as well bid 5♣ along the way.

[Winstonm]

Perhaps a direct 5C over 4D or over the 4S bid instead of doubling would have helped.

One of the problems with artificial bids is the location of your cards remains unknown until clarified. More than likely your pard is on a 1-suited hand, and with such length support for hearts it seems unlikely that 4S doubled is right. So instead of doubling the 4S bid, it seems better to bid 5C - having already shown no suit to bid this can't be anthing but a "card showing" bid. Whether it is a slam try is open to questioning, though. My opinion is that it should not be a slam try but an unwillingness to play 4S doubled and no more.

 

WinstonM

[pclayton]

No.

 

I agree with Ben - this hand is a supermax for the 2♣ opener. FP allows us to differentiate between a regular offensive hand and an offensive monster.

[TimG]

FP allows us to differentiate between a regular offensive hand and an offensive monster.

I think you're trying to thread too fine a line. And, that the information expressed with a ♣ call will more than make up for possibly not knowing the difference between a maximum and a super maximum.

[mike777]

I fail to see how opener bidding 5c or 5d can help Partner either direct or after forcing pass. 5Clubs is a cuebid not a suit. Opener can still have xx in spades or other minor and need help in one or the other suit. One could debate pass and pull with 5D shows clubs and d but needs help in spades.

 

So after pass and pull:

4nt shows spades, looking for minor help

5c looking for D help

5D looking for S help

 

Forcing pass and 4nt works best assuming the previous action. Now p can bid 5 clubs. Agree this is difficult to find at table without a lot of experience. Agree this is much easier in forum than 30 seconds at table, under pressure.