What does your jump reverse mean?

[silvr bull]

What meaning does your partnership give to a jump reverse? For example:

1♦-1♠

3♥

or

1♣-1M

3♦

 

The hand that raised this question was:

[hv=pc=n&s=sat8632ht5dkq8c97&n=sk975hqdaj642caj4&d=w&v=b&b=4&a=p1dp1sp2sp4sppp]266|200[/hv]

 

None of the pairs with the N-S hands bid the slam. In our K-S style, the 2S bid shows 4 card support and the equivalent strength of a strong 1NT open. A jump to 3S instead would have shown a stronger hand than North had. Even if North stretches to jump to 3S, and South stretches to que 4D, it is unlikely that we would get higher than 4S.

 

The stiff H in North is the key to considering a slam with only 24 HCP. My thought (after the hand) is that a reverse by North would be a one round force, so a jump reverse would not simply be a stronger bid, but would have a different meaning. A H splinter seems right to me, but it could be only an invitational raise to 2.5S and not be a game force. North could use the jump reverse as a splinter that invites to game if South has no wasted values in Hs. Then North could pass if South bids only 3S. Conversely, the jump reverse would set Ss as trump, so 3NT by South would not be natural to play. Instead, South's 3NT would show at least mild slam interest, and would ask North to que on the way to 4S. If we had discussed this meaning, my preferred auction would be:

1D-1S

3H-3NT

4C-4D

4S-4NT RKC to 6S

 

Does anyone have a better way to bid this slam, or have a better meaning for a jump reverse?

[helene_t]

The mini splinter is fine but if North has Qxxx-x-Axxx-AKQx the five level is not safe so I don't think it is easy to bid this slam.

[PhilKing]

If you are playing KS, I think there is a much better use for the jump to 3♦. Play it as showing (17)18-19 balanced with 4-card support.

 

Regardless of this, I think playing minisplinters is a mistake, since it leaks more information than it is worth. Once you switch to this treatment, the direct raise to three can show an unbalanced raise with real clubs. Over that you should play step one as asking for a shortage and other bids to show a shortage (eg 1♣-1♥-3♥-3NT would show a SPADE shortage).

 

Back to the actual hand, I agree you are just worth a raise to Two, which is typically stronger than normal in KS. However, if you think about it, the South hand is worth a relay, but you still have no clear solution. Over 2NT, North jumps to 4♥, and South does not have security to go past game.

[gszes]

The mini splinter is fine but if North has Qxxx-x-Axxx-AKQx the five level is not safe so I don't think it is easy to bid this slam.

 

the five level is not safe:) to me the 5 level is safer than most of my grand slams:))))

[aguahombre]

 

The hand that raised this question was:

[hv=pc=n&s=sat8632ht5dkq8c97&n=sk975hqdaj642caj4&d=w&v=b&b=4&a=p1dp1sp2sp4sppp]266|200[/hv]

 

 

The stiff H in North is the key to considering a slam with only 24 HCP.

Although my different way of thinking about this hand might not result in slam, here --- it could be a start.

 

The "key" to considering slam with a low HCP count is only peripherally the Stiff Heart or a Stiff Club, for that matter. The real key is for South to know Opener has an unbalanced Hand and visualize eleven tricks in Spades and Diamonds, thus explore for a 12th trick and lack of two quick losers.

 

We don't have the methods. If North made an extremely froggy 3S Rebid, maybe; but that won't happen.

 

KXXX

AXX

AXXXX

X would be fine...20, not 24, HCP.

[Cyberyeti]

Although my different way of thinking about this hand might not result in slam, here --- it could be a start.

 

The "key" to considering slam with a low HCP count is only peripherally the Stiff Heart or a Stiff Club, for that matter. The real key is for South to know Opener has an unbalanced Hand and visualize eleven tricks in Spades and Diamonds, thus explore for a 12th trick and lack of two quick losers.

 

We don't have the methods. If North made an extremely froggy 3S Rebid, maybe; but that won't happen.

 

KXXX

AXX

AXXXX

X would be fine...20, not 24, HCP.

 

Can't S flag up the possibility of slam if N controls ♥/♣ with a 4♦ bid ?

[mikeh]

In answer to the OP: there is no such thing as a jump reverse. As you noted, a reverse is forcing. Bridge bidding is difficult enough without using 2 bids to convey almost identical information. Therefore 3♥ is a splinter.

 

Regardless of basic system, one can choose to play 3♥ in several ways. I agree with PK that using 3♥ as a mini-splinter is a bad idea. My own preference is to use it as an invitational or better splinter, reserving 4♥ as void showing, with a good hand.

 

I play a weak notrump, with the added feature/restriction that a single raise promises 4 card support. This can be sub-optimal on some hands where opener has a rebid problem but on hands like this pays dividends. Responder knows that opener has either a balanced strong 1N or shape. Responder is worth a relay and then it comes down to method. I note that PK suggests that opener would bid 4♥, presumably a splinter. That sort of relay structure is better than nothing, but a serious partnership will have a more complex method. We use the first step to promise an unspecified shortness, and responder can ask. We'd still get to the 4-level to show the heart stiff, but it would be via 4♣, allowing a 4♦ cue....I doubt we'd find the slam even after that, since it would require at least one of the partners to take a rosy view of their hand to push to the 5-level.

[aguahombre]

Can't S flag up the possibility of slam if N controls ♥/♣ with a 4♦ bid ?

First, South has to know North has 4-5 in the point suits in order to visualize those possible 11 tricks. Then, he has to know one of those offsuit controls is a bullet or void (a trick). Then confirm the two key pointed suit cards.

 

North cannot take over instead because he won't know the spade trick count.

[Cyberyeti]

First, South has to know North has 4-5 in the point suits in order to visualize those possible 11 tricks. Then, he has to know one of those offsuit controls is a bullet or void (a trick). Then confirm the two key pointed suit cards.

 

North cannot take over instead because he won't know the spade trick count.

 

I would have thought S has shown two doubletons with no controls by the 4♦ bid so N knows he needs at least ace in one and a control in the other, but yes, S could be 5-4 although I'd expect him to have quite a bit more in that case.

 

What do people bid 3♦ on after 1♦-1♠-2♠ ?

[mike777]

It seems that a good start is:

 

1d=1s

3h=4d

?

---

 

 

Your suggested auction is also ok.

[aguahombre]

I would have thought S has shown two doubletons with no controls by the 4♦ bid so N knows he needs at least ace in one and a control in the other, but yes, S could be 5-4 although I'd expect him to have quite a bit more in that case.

That's my problem. If South is 5-2-4-2 with no controls in the doubletons, his "quite a bit more" wouldn't existent or wouldn't be helpful. Anyway. I am not saying no one can do it...just that we couldn't.

[Phil]

If you are playing KS, I think there is a much better use for the jump to 3♦. Play it as showing (17)18-19 balanced with 4-card support.

 

Why limit it to KS?

[Cyberyeti]

That's my problem. If South is 5-2-4-2 with no controls in the doubletons, his "quite a bit more" wouldn't existent or wouldn't be helpful. Anyway. I am not saying no one can do it...just that we couldn't.

 

Hang on, AQxxx, xx, KQxx, xx is also a cold 6♠ with a club going on the diamond and a heart ruffed in dummy.

[helene_t]

I have come across a few pairs that play it as natural. With GF values and 6-5 you reverse and then reverse again (for example over partner's Ingberman signoff). The reverse jump shows less than that so p can pass with a 5215 6-count or such.

[keithhus]

This is at a tangent to the question but what's the view on what I would have done viz;

As N I would have bis 3S. Then as South I would have bid gerber and then bid 6S.

Please bear in mind I am a beginner, trying to improve my bidding,. At present I am making too many mistakes when playing online, would this have been another? Thank you

[fourdad]

In answer to the OP: there is no such thing as a jump reverse. As you noted, a reverse is forcing. Bridge bidding is difficult enough without using 2 bids to convey almost identical information. Therefore 3♥ is a splinter.

 

Regardless of basic system, one can choose to play 3♥ in several ways. I agree with PK that using 3♥ as a mini-splinter is a bad idea. My own preference is to use it as an invitational or better splinter, reserving 4♥ as void showing, with a good hand.

 

I play a weak notrump, with the added feature/restriction that a single raise promises 4 card support. This can be sub-optimal on some hands where opener has a rebid problem but on hands like this pays dividends. Responder knows that opener has either a balanced strong 1N or shape. Responder is worth a relay and then it comes down to method. I note that PK suggests that opener would bid 4♥, presumably a splinter. That sort of relay structure is better than nothing, but a serious partnership will have a more complex method. We use the first step to promise an unspecified shortness, and responder can ask. We'd still get to the 4-level to show the heart stiff, but it would be via 4♣, allowing a 4♦ cue....I doubt we'd find the slam even after that, since it would require at least one of the partners to take a rosy view of their hand to push to the 5-level.

 

I concur that "jump reverse" is a fabrication. It is JUMP SHIFT is it not?

 

1♦-1♠-3♠-4♦-6♠

 

4♦ showing a double fit and the slam, with the lone heart and club control is then worth a shot.

[PhilKing]

FWIW, none of the solutions recommending a 3♠ raise are consistent with KS.

 

KS uses a stronger than normal raise to 2M - it shows either an unbalanced hand with four trumps or a strong no trump with 4 trumps, so 3♠ show a much better hand. As MikeH says, a decent relay over 2♠ can identify the heart shortage in time to make bidding slam realistic, or as Cyberyeti implied, we can use 3♦ as a natural slam try.

[daffydoc]

All my partnerships - and with any expert with whom I do not have an explicit agreement- would play this as a mini splinter - does not promise significant extras. daffydoc

[ArtK78]

I have always referred to the bid as a jump reverse.  But that is a quibble.

 

I play it as a split range splinter - either invitational to game or too good for a game forcing splinter.  I play the jump to the 4 level as a game forcing but limited splinter. Responder treats the bid as an invitational splinter and bids accordingly.  If opener has the monster splinter, he will bid again over a signoff.

[Trinidad]

I concur that "jump reverse" is a fabrication. It is JUMP SHIFT is it not?

A jump shift is the bid of a new suit ("a shift"), one level higher than the minimum required level (with a jump).

A jump reverse is a reverse (a bid in a suit that partner has skipped in the auction), one level higher than the minimum required level (with a jump).

 

A bid like 1♣-1♠; 3♦ is a jump reverse, because 2♦ is a reverse and 3♦ one level higher than 2♦.

 

I would say it is standard to play a jump reverse to show a splinter. (The bid is a jump reverse, its meaning is a splinter.)

 

I like to play that the cheapest jump reverse shows an 18-19 (semi-)balanced hand with 4 card support.

 

Rik

[Cyberyeti]

I have come across a few pairs that play it as natural. With GF values and 6-5 you reverse and then reverse again (for example over partner's Ingberman signoff). The reverse jump shows less than that so p can pass with a 5215 6-count or such.

 

We actually play it as this sort of thing as we do with 1♥-1♠/2♣-3♦ which would show 5-5 2 good suits, not a great hand, AQ10xx/AKxxx and out type thing, 1♦-1♠/2♣-3♥ would be the 5-6 reds equivalent, technically NF but almost never passed over 2♣, more often passed over 1♠.

[nekthen]

Agree with those who say it is a splinter.

I do not agree that North has more than 2♠. This may well be the limit of the hand.

 

It is South's bid of 4♠ that is the problem. 3♦ describes this hand. Spades are agreed so we are showing a good hand with a useful ♦ fragment.

The subsequent cue bidding should propel the pair into slam

[Lovera]

For me S already should "see" if not slam almost five level than to bid (that is better S than N) 4NT 'cause its unbalanced hand and raise of partner that make hypothesis of plus honors in spade (infact we know that this is not in spade but diamond ..). After everything is more easy.

[dave_beer]

The stiff H in North is the key to considering a slam with only 24 HCP.

I disagree. The key to possible slam is being able to take at least 4 ♦ tricks in addition to 6 trumps in responder's hand plus 2 more without having 2 fast losers in the rounded suits.

 

Kxxx-x-AJxx-Axxx (or Kxxx-Axxx-AJxx-x)

Kxxx-x-AJxxx-Axx (or Kxxx-Axx-AJxxx-x)

Kxxx-Ax-AJxx-Axx (or Kxxx-Axx-AJxx-Ax)

 

The first two pairs of hands are clearly not worth 3♠ in K-S; the 3rd pair might upgrade because almost all of its HCP are in key cards.

 

Once ♠ are raised responder's reevaluates to an opening bid and, if he has a way to make a mild slam try that focuses on being able to take ♦ tricks, then maybe he should make one. I think that 3♦ does that. With any of the example hands opener can almost drive to slam.

 

Once we know about ♦ tricks we have to worry about trump solidity. If opener has ♠KQ I don't think he can have 1st or 2nd round control of both rounded suits and we should be able to find that out; if he has ♠QJ then it is probably a 4 or 6 hand on the ♠ finesse; if he has just the ♠Q then we should stop in 4♠.

[redbird97]

I play jump reverses show 6-5 minimums.