cherdano Posted March 6, 2015 Report Share Posted March 6, 2015 You're a fine player so I assume I am missing something obvious :DI am sure Adam would rebid 2N with 4 hearts almost always - that's why responder shows 4 hearts with 3H over 2N. 3H would only be bid by hands that have fewer than 4 hearts, or don't care about missing a heart fit (xxxx). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeh Posted March 6, 2015 Report Share Posted March 6, 2015 I am sure Adam would rebid 2N with 4 hearts almost always - that's why responder shows 4 hearts with 3H over 2N. 3H would only be bid by hands that have fewer than 4 hearts, or don't care about missing a heart fit (xxxx). So over 2N by opener, how does responder distinguish between 4 and 5 hearts? I see he says that over opener's 2N, 3♥ is natural, but if it can be 4 hearts, opener can usually only raise with 4, presumably. Opener could well bid 4m as a cuebid along the way, but the point remains: if 3♥ could be 4 then opener will usually be bidding 3N here. And if it is always 5 plus, we still have the spectre of having game going values, or better, with no opposition bidding at all, and being unable to find a 4-4 heart fit. If I am reading this correctly, then this is unacceptable. Edit: in addition, having to bid 2N with 0=4=5=4 and, say, 1=3=5=4 or 2=2=5=4 with a heart stopper (assuming one wouldn't rebid 1N due to being out of range and/or not opening 1n with 2=2=5=4 and no spade card) makes me a little nervous. Just when does opener actually begin describing his hand? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awm Posted March 6, 2015 Report Share Posted March 6, 2015 More details after 1d-1s-2c-2h: 2s = usually Hx in spades; can be three spades in a hand not suited to raising directly2nt = usually 3-4 hearts; maybe a strong doubleton heart, if fewer than four hearts will have at least a stopper3c = at least 5/5 minors3d = at least 6/4 minors3h = 2254 or 1354 without a heart stop, spades worse than Hx 1d-1s-2c-2h-2nt: 3m = sets the suit, asks for cuebid or opener can bid 3nt if very bad for slam3s = 6+spade, opener can bid 3nt to reject spades or otherwise cuebid3h = at least four hearts, opener bids:... 3s = small doubleton, 2254... 3nt = 1354 with decent hearts... 4x = cue with 4 hearts I don't see any big problem here. In contrast if openers 3h is natural: 1. What does opener bid with 1354 and no heart stop?2. What does responder bid with 5143 over 3h, where slam depends heavily on openers heart holding (and 3nt may be the last spot)?3. How does responder make a slam try in hearts over 3h? If 3s is artificial you can produce a nice (though complex) solution but if you need 3s natural here it seems you are out of room... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeh Posted March 6, 2015 Report Share Posted March 6, 2015 More details after 1d-1s-2c-2h: 2s = usually Hx in spades; can be three spades in a hand not suited to raising directly2nt = usually 3-4 hearts; maybe a strong doubleton heart, if fewer than four hearts will have at least a stopper3c = at least 5/5 minors3d = at least 6/4 minors3h = 2254 or 1354 without a heart stop, spades worse than Hx 1d-1s-2c-2h-2nt: 3m = sets the suit, asks for cuebid or opener can bid 3nt if very bad for slam3s = 6+spade, opener can bid 3nt to reject spades or otherwise cuebid3h = at least four hearts, opener bids:... 3s = small doubleton, 2254... 3nt = 1354 with decent hearts... 4x = cue with 4 hearts I don't see any big problem here. In contrast if openers 3h is natural: 1. What does opener bid with 1354 and no heart stop?2. What does responder bid with 5143 over 3h, where slam depends heavily on openers heart holding (and 3nt may be the last spot)?3. How does responder make a slam try in hearts over 3h? If 3s is artificial you can produce a nice (though complex) solution but if you need 3s natural here it seems you are out of room...thx for the explanation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenberg Posted March 7, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2015 Since we have come this far, let me pin down one aspect of this.After 1D-1S-2C-2H-2NT, responder could have both four hearts and a four card minor. This makes him 5=4=4/0 but it happens. If I understand correctly, opener might well have four hearts. Further, if responder bids 3m showing that fit, a 3H bid by opener is a cue, not a suit. So, to avoid this problem, responder should delay showing his minor fit and bid 3H. If partner raises this heart bid, that's great. If not, he probably bids 3NT and then, if we want to go on, we can show the minor fit I suppose. This problem will not arise often, but it will happen at times. I am very appreciative of the general scheme. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Yu Posted March 13, 2015 Report Share Posted March 13, 2015 3S cue bid? Partner has shown his exact shape already, I think you want to see if pd can show some C control. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovera Posted May 31, 2015 Report Share Posted May 31, 2015 I was thinking at splinter and its use and i am of idea to limit it enter third level indicating singleton in suit +/-1 respect probable trump (so singleton in spade or diamond if heart is probable trump and so on for other suits). When arise a situation like this (=4th suit) togheter splinter meaning we can estabilish a priority to difference. So i said: is 4th suit if has bidded (early) NT for its use to know stopper, splinter at third level if has not bidded NT. So if spade is not trump should be probably used to indicate splinter for (here) club suit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinksy Posted May 31, 2015 Report Share Posted May 31, 2015 2nt = usually 3-4 hearts; maybe a strong doubleton heart, if fewer than four hearts will have at least a stopper3h = 2254 or 1354 without a heart stop, spades worse than Hx Does this have any effect on what you consider a H stop? It seems like it could affect edge cases either way - eg not playing this system, 3H over 2N could be (I don't know if it normally would be) a check back against the solidarity of the stop, whereas playing it means you can't do so - so perhaps 2N needs a more robust stop in the first place. Against that, since 3H with this system suggests a hand that's got fewer average Hs than it would without this system, if you bid it on eg Qxx, partner's never going to take a punt on his Jxx, so you might miss 3N. Or do you just go with the 'life's too short' approach in any system, and decide a stop's a stop? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awm Posted May 31, 2015 Report Share Posted May 31, 2015 If bidding notrump showed a specific stopper, we do not place priority on having a subsequent call to again ask for the same stopper. Of course some low-level NT bids may not show a stopper (1m-1S-X-P-1NT) and in this case having an ask is normal. In fact I think the more common alternative for 1d-1s-2c-2h-2nt-3h is showing 5/5 majors, not a stopper re-ask. Otherwise how do you bid this hand? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovera Posted May 31, 2015 Report Share Posted May 31, 2015 The bidding of 4th suit (forcing a round) query for a"stopper" or complementary to a "stopper" to play NT (if at third level warrant a subsequent bidding but is not forcing game) .. According to a variant a jump in 4th suit meaning acceptance of the second suit of the opener inviting to slam (starting cue bids etc). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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