a nebulous diamond structure

[WGF_Flame]

Check out the way forward system, the 1D is 11-13 bal, or 10-15 unbal without 5M or 6m. 1h is relay or nat. the structure is good, but not easy to remember.

[straube]

I was talking to Atul about responding to 1D with a weak 6S/5H hand (or weak 5S/6H hand for that matter) and suggested that playing WJSs one would be better off preempting the 6-cd major to avoid a rebid problem after 1D-1M, 2C. Atul thought better to just rebid the 6-cd major and risk presenting the hand as invitational. After all, opener is likely not to rebid 2C and over a 1S or 1N rebid there is no problem. So I think both of us have a point and it may depend on exactly how weak the 6/5 hand is. The weaker it is, the more one ought to think about preempting it. Any clarification here?

 

Still thinking about structures. I think Reverse Flannery could be useful, feel that the invitation sort can be reasonably dealt with otherwise than a 2S response and that the spade WJS is frequent and useful. 1D-1S is more preemptive than 1D-1H and I would think that getting rid of spade hands is called for. Obviously I would then have to find ways then to deal with heart WJSs and IJSs.

 

1D-2H-Reverse Flannery

1D-2S-WJS

 

After 1D-1S

 

1N-11-13 bal or 10-13 3-suited singleton spade

.....2C-forces 2D

..........2D-forced

...............2H-5S/4H GI

...............2S-5S only, GI

.....2D-GF

.....2H-5S only, if weak then 4+m, potential to use this for COG etc

.....2S-GI 6S

 

 

2C-14-15 3-suited short spade or 10-15 04(54)

.....P-4C or 5-3-2-3

.....2D-correction

..........2H-1-4-3-5

.....2H-artificial ask

..........2S-04(54)

...............3m-invitational

..........etc-patterning

.....2S-6S, GI?

.....2N-5332 or 4333, GF opposite the usual 14-15 but correctable opposite 10-13 04(54)s

.....3L-weak, preemptive

 

2D-10-15 5m/5m

.....2H-artificial ask

..........2S-minimum

..........etc

.....2S-GI

.....2N-GI

..........3M-3M

.....3C-correction

.....3D-preemptive

[foobar]

Atul thought better to just rebid the 6-cd major and risk presenting the hand as invitational. After all, opener is likely not to rebid 2C and over a 1S or 1N rebid there is no problem. So I think both of us have a point and it may depend on exactly how weak the 6/5 hand is. The weaker it is, the more one ought to think about preempting it. Any clarification here?

 

 

Seems interesting -- note that the preference for reverse Flannery is out of familiarity and isn't backed up by any real analysis. If frequency of WJS is more (and it likely is), it's perfectly fine to use that instead.

 

This scheme seems to try and hedge the bets and it might be interesting to see how 2♥ WJS compares with 2♥ as rev Flannery. Probably a simulation might yield some data...

[straube]

So two thoughts for 1D-1H which now has to account for WJS with 6H. Which is better?

 

1S-4S

1N-bal (including 22(54))

2C-5m/4m+

.....2H-to play

.....2S-GF

.....3H-GI

2D-raise with shortness, includes 13(54) and 0355

2H-bal raise with 4

2S-void raise

 

 

or...

 

1S-4S

1N-bal or 3-1-(54) 10-13

.....2C-requests 2D

..........2D

...............2H-GI with 5+

.....2D-5H/4 if sign off, otherwise GF with 5

..........2H-2 or 3H

..........2S-3-1-(54)

.....2H-6H sign off

.....2S-GF relay

..........2N-4m4m or 3-1-(54)

..........3C-5C332

..........3D-4m333

..........etc-5D332

2C-5/5 or 3-1-(54) 10-13

.....2H-to play

.....3m-invitational with 3+

.....3H-GI

etc-same

 

What I like about the last is that it allows responder to invite with only 3-cd support after 1D-1H, 2C because either opener has 5m/5m or the 3-1-(54) max which will bid again regardless. Also since 1D-1H, 2C denies 3 hearts, we could have an auction like 1D-1H, 2C-3C, 3H-4H where responder has something like

2623 and opener 1255. The last structure does lose out on 5H332 not being able to sign off in 2H.

[straube]

1D-1H

 

1S-4S or 10-12 and 3-1-(54)

.....2C-GF relay

.....2D-GI ask, includes 6H

.....2H-6H

.....2S-raise

 

1N-bal

.....2C-puppets for diamond sign off or invite

.....2D-GF

.....2H-sign off, 5+

 

2C-5m/5m or 13-15 3-1-(54)

.....2D-preference

.....2H-to play

.....2S-GF relay

.....2N-GI, tends to deny 3m

.....3m-GI, 3+m

.....3H-GI, good suit

 

2D-10-13 and 4H and singleton OR 10-15 and 1-3-4-5, 1-3-5-4, 0-3-5-5

.....2H-to play, presumes 10-13

..........2S-1-3-4-5, 14-15

..........2N-1-3-5-4, 14-15

..........3C-0-3-5-5, 14-15

 

2H-4H, bal

.....2S-GF relay

 

2S-14-15, 5m/5m

.....2N-GF relay

 

2N-4H, void

.....3C-GF relay

 

3C-14-15, 1-4-4-4, 1-4-3-5, 1-4-5-3

.....3D-GF relay

 

3D-14-15, 4-4-1-4, 3-4-1-5

.....3S-GF relay

 

3H-14-15, 4-4-4-1, 3-4-5-1

.....3S-GF relay

 

 

I like this best. It's simple. I've almost cut in half the hands that "have" to rebid 1S with 3-1-(54) which awm and foobar have pointed out is not such a great bid.

 

Keeping this to 10-12 means that I could use 1D-1H, 1S-1N, 2m as 4S/5m max just as IMPrecision does.

 

It means that 1D-1H, 2C-3m can be a 3-cd raise and I think that's huge; it solves all sorts of rebid problems for responder and it means that 1D-1H, 2C-2N is likely 4522 or worse and opener need not rebid 3C again to show a 5/5 hand.

[awm]

I like your 2nd structure. You may be able to do a bit better over 1nt, like:

 

2c = various s/o or GF

2d = 6h inv or various 5+h GF

2h = 5h inv NF

2s+ = other inv+ hands

 

After 2c:

... 2d = real balanced hand; now 2s relay others s/o

... 2h = 31(45) or 22(45) now pass/3m s/o

 

After 2c-2d, 2s relay:

2nt = clubs

3c = (23)44

3d = 3343

3h/3s/3nt = 5d-(323)

[straube]

That's clever. I was wondering your opinion. Is the 1S rebid with 3 the main reason for liking the second better than the last?

 

I'm wondering, too, your thought on XYZ continuations. Until last night, I'd thought the world played 1D-1H, 1S-2C, 2D-2H promised 6 hearts and I'd like to be able to guarantee 6 here anyway. It's part of why I've wanted to rebid 1S with certain 31(54s)...to allow a GI of 6H at the 2-level. I'm also willing to give up a diamond sign off at the 2-level as 1D-1H, 1S only promises one diamond (4315 as worst). So looking at...

 

2C-GI ask

.....2D-0-1H, any strength

..........2H-6H

.....2H-2H and minimum (will be balanced 11-12ish)

.....2S-3H and minimum

.....2N-2+H and non-minimum

..........3m-natural, nf

..........3H-5H, f

..........3S-4S, nf

..........4H-6H

 

 

basically 1, 2, 3 hearts with 2N making an inquiry of the nature of the invitation.

 

Another question, if we went with 1D-1H, 1S as possibly 10-12 with the 31(54s) and responder made an XYZ invitation to 2S, would you want to play there or would you remove to 2N?

[foobar]

I'm wondering, too, your thought on XYZ continuations. Until last night, I'd thought the world played 1D-1H, 1S-2C, 2D-2H promised 6 hearts and I'd like to be able to guarantee 6 here anyway. It's part of why I've wanted to rebid 1S with certain 31(54s)...to allow a GI of 6H at the 2-level. I'm also willing to give up a diamond sign off at the 2-level as 1D-1H, 1S only promises one diamond (4315 as worst).

 

Requiring 6♥ for XYZ after 1♦ - 1♥ - 1♠ doesn't seem very playable. Basically, responder will be forced to bid 2N on several hands with 5♥ and we could very easily miss our ♥ fit when opener holds a typical balanced hand with 43(42).

 

IMP uses fairly natural continuations after the forced 2♦ rebid and 3♥ shows 6.

[straube]

The 10-12 3-1-(54) hands are a nuisance whether they're place in 1S, 1N, or 2C rebids. Rebidding 1N is nice for a start, but this screws responder when he wants to sign off in 2H with a 5H332 or with 4S5Hxy. It also adds a lot of complexity to allow separate invites for 5H vs 6H hands if you want to be able to remain at the 2H level when you have a 6-1 fit. If instead the 10-12 3-1-(54)s rebid 2C then the range is fairly wide, the GI heart hands have to rebid 3H, and responder will often have rebid problems with invitational hands, especially those without a 4-cd minor or spade stop.

 

Rebidding 1S with 10-12 and 3-1-(54) is also an evil, missing minor suit fits (when they exist), getting to 2S for a 4-3 fit when NT or a minor suit contract is better, etc. But it also has chances to win. Responder may rebid 1N and escape a 4-3 or 4-2 minor suit fit. Responder may pass with 4S. But I know a net loss here.

 

What I like about it is that the continuations are simpler. Rebidding 1S with 3-1-(54) is set up to reject any invitation, so if (after 1D-1H, 1S-2C) you accept an invitation, then you have 4S. This helps particularly after..

 

1D-1H, 1S-2C, 2D if 2D shows spade shortness and responder has GI with 4S and 6H. This is ticklish because opener has something like a 30% chance of having the dreaded 3-1-(54) after known heart shortness. Personally, I'd rebid 2H here because playing a 6-1 fit vs a likely 4-4 fit at the 2-level seems acceptable to me. I mean I think we would usually make. But playing a 4-3 spade fit vs a 6-1 heart fit is bad. So 1D-1H, 1S-2C, 2D-2H and now opener accepts the invitation inferring 4S and responder can correct to 4S. If opener has a minimum void hearts (and thus 4S) he rebids 2S.

 

So the 4S/6H hand may illustrate this best, but I'd also like the ability to sort out 5H vs 6H invitations after 1D-1H, 1S without having to play at the 3-level. Having 1D-1H, 1S-2C be an asking bid lets us do this. In fact, maybe

 

2D-0-1H, any strength

2H-2-3H, minimum

2S-3H, a smidge over minimum

2N-GF

 

could be better.

 

The cost of this seems to be the ability to play 2D with a weak 4H/6D hand. These hands come up. OTOH we don't really worry about 1D-1H, 1S-3C to play and with a weak 4H/6m hand we might arguably have preempted these immediately to shut out spades. Maybe bidding hearts first and then the minor should show a 5/6 or something. I mean if responder is very weak and probably vulnerable and has 4H/6D he can always pass 1D. Questions for another time maybe, but even if 1D-1H, 1S-3D shows a weak 4H/6D I can live with that.

 

Btw, I'm looking at...

 

1D-1H, 2C as 12-15 5/5 or 13-15 3-1-(54)

1D-1H, 2S as 10-11 5/5

 

This means that 1D-1H, 2C is more in synch as a decent hand and allows responder to invite slightly weaker (knowing 12-15 vs 10-15).

 

Or we could just preempt the 10-11 5/5s with 2N.

 

Btw Adam, we're using your 1N, 2C, and 2D and 2N structures now. What's your range for 2N and would you extend it as high as 10-11?

 

Maybe

 

2N=9-11

1D-1H, 2C=12-13 or 13-15 31(54)

1D-1H, 2S=14-15

[awm]

My feeling is that the 2nt opening is not at all good in constructive auctions, so I prefer to keep it quite weak (NV) or narrow range (V); would not want a wide range that includes 10-11. Probably 9-11 is okay though.

[awm]

I think that you are somewhat worried about the wrong things here. Do you expect to win boards running from 1nt to 2h with 5332 now? Again, my experience is that this is rarely right even if opener guarantees 2-3. Too often seven tricks is the limit, or the 2h bid helps opponents balance, or they find a double when hearts break badly. This is a different case from when opener has 5332 and responder balanced, because opener has most of the strength meaning there is more likely a problem in his xx suit, his trump suit is likely more robust, there is less likely to be another effective source of tricks, etc.

 

This is not the same as whether to transfer over a weak notrump either, because a big win there is finding opener with four (here not possible) and ability of opponents to double a bad break is also less.

[straube]

Appreciate this feedback because I'd probably otherwise rebid 2H with 5H332 more of the time.

 

For the sake of separating the 5 from the 6+ GI heart hands, I'm sacrificing the ability to play 2D after 1D-1H, 1S regardless whether 1S promises 4 or not.

 

Then, if 1D-1H, 1N promises a balanced hand, responder's 5 and 6+H hands can be grouped. Responder can judge whether to rebid 2H with Kxxx Kxxxx x xxx or

xxx KQT8x Qx xxx (or beef up the heart suit to taste) which he can't really if 1D-1H, 1N includes 3-1-(54).

 

But the other issue is just the additional machinery required to handle 3-1-(54) being in with a 1N rebid. If 1N is balanced, then I have...

 

2C-puppets 2D for p/invite

2D-GF/5+H

2H-sign off

2S-GF relay

 

which is pretty simple if not the best possible.

[etha]

I just started sending friends a hand a day for us to look at. The very first one applies here.

 

void Kjt7 kj8543 974.

 

love all imps teams head to head match winning the match is all that matters. You are in first seat.

 

Assuming you are passing this in your system rather than bidding 3♦, the bidding goes pass pass 1♦(nebulous) (1♠).

 

I'll let you decide what you do next and any methods you might have here before I continue.