gedikk Posted February 20, 2015 Report Share Posted February 20, 2015 http://tinyurl.com/q9b9yux Choice of openings and rebids is abundant incl. even 2♣. I tried the usual 1♦ overture with both minors. 3♣ is strongly pursuing minors, however 3NT not so encouraging. 4♠ sounds like 3055. 5♣ is a fit, and I passed not solving even partly the dilemma about the quality of clubs support mainly, and ♦/♠ dummy holding. Another holdback was the wide-ranging count (5-11) of 1NT response in SA / 2 over 1.Although playing strong two-suiter reverses, I am sort of stuck to perception that 544 hands need special treatment. Moreover, reverse in diamonds and spades is equally possible here. By using 1♣...2♦/♠ sequence, the huge club fit is to be found straight away leading probably to an easier slam. At some tables, West opened 2♥. Altogether, all BBOers having played it as N-S lacked skills to reach a slam.You might offer wiser hints for the proceedings in question.[hv=pc=n&s=sq94hkq5d98cq8632&n=sak32hdak53cakt95&d=n&v=0&b=1&a=1dp1np3cp3np4sp5cppp]266|200[/hv] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted February 20, 2015 Report Share Posted February 20, 2015 I would open 1♣, intending to reverse in spades and then bid diamonds. With the two hands, I would expect the auction to start 1♣ - 2♣3♥ - 3N Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyberyeti Posted February 20, 2015 Report Share Posted February 20, 2015 You open 1♦ when you don't have reversing strength, open 1♣ on this. We would start 1♣-2♣ (inverted, 9+ with 5 or 10+ with 4) so are looking at a grand all the way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gszes Posted February 20, 2015 Report Share Posted February 20, 2015 I added strong 4441 4450 style hands to my multi (seems like eons ago) and that cured almost all of the problems. This is not that tough a hand to bid naturally. The main key here is to open 1c and think simple reverse not taking up any more space than needed early in the bidding. The biddingshould start 1c because it is vastly more flexible when it comes to describing this particular distribution and the bidding should proceed 1c1n2d Do not waste space especially since a 44 spade fit is no longer possible.2h "stuff" in hearts no spade stop (may have a partial spade stop)3s patterning out and the fact that you did not bid 3n shows slam interest since we do not pattern out for no reason (at least 18).3n big club fit but making sure p does not run from 3n due to worries about the heart suit. With only 2 queens outside the heart suit responder really does not want to encourage opener especially since they do not have the heart ace (a much more slammish card).4h since the previous bidding could have been done with almost an ace less one more push for slam is needed. The 4h bid shows precisely 4045 andshould show a hand with tons of controls. 6c while no ability to cue bid the 4 useful hcp (outside of hearts) along with the approximately 20 opener is showing (along with a heart void) shouldmake 6c a very decent contract. There is unfortunately no way to show extra distributional features without some really well oiled machinery and this will handcuff opener.PASS For those playing 1c 2c as 6-10 and a club fit the bidding will be the same after 2c.For those choosing 1c 3c (preemptive ---I think a poor choice due to cruddy suit and near max and balanced) they can survive via1c3c3d (16+)3h4s around 184n (sign off try with (probable) double heart stops)5c around 20 6c pretty accurate but does run the risk of being in 5c vs 4n Remember that opening these hands 1m runs the serious risk of being left there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyberyeti Posted February 20, 2015 Report Share Posted February 20, 2015 Gszes, why should 3N show a huge club fit in your first auction ? What is partner supposed to do with xxx, KQ10, J10x, 6432 where 3N is probably where you want to be particularly at pairs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
masonbarge Posted February 21, 2015 Report Share Posted February 21, 2015 http://tinyurl.com/q9b9yux Choice of openings and rebids is abundant incl. even 2♣. I tried the usual 1♦ overture with both minors. 3♣ is strongly pursuing minors, however 3NT not so encouraging. 4♠ sounds like 3055. 5♣ is a fit, and I passed not solving even partly the dilemma about the quality of clubs support mainly, and ♦/♠ dummy holding. Another holdback was the wide-ranging count (5-11) of 1NT response in SA / 2 over 1.Although playing strong two-suiter reverses, I am sort of stuck to perception that 544 hands need special treatment. Moreover, reverse in diamonds and spades is equally possible here. By using 1♣...2♦/♠ sequence, the huge club fit is to be found straight away leading probably to an easier slam. At some tables, West opened 2♥. Altogether, all BBOers having played it as N-S lacked skills to reach a slam.You might offer wiser hints for the proceedings in question.[hv=pc=n&s=sq94hkq5d98cq8632&n=sak32hdak53cakt95&d=n&v=0&b=1&a=1dp1np3cp3np4sp5cppp]266|200[/hv] I don't understand all the angst. If you're not going to bid your strong bid at least bid your longest suit. 2C - p - 3C - p7C Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted February 21, 2015 Report Share Posted February 21, 2015 I don't understand all the angst. If you're not going to bid your strong bid at least bid your longest suit. 2C - p - 3C - p7C I doubt that you will find much support for a 3♣ response to a 2♣ opening 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
masse24 Posted February 21, 2015 Report Share Posted February 21, 2015 Open 1♣ :blink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
masonbarge Posted February 21, 2015 Report Share Posted February 21, 2015 I doubt that you will find much support for a 3♣ response to a 2♣ opening Bridge Doctor: "If your partner opens 2♣, you can warn partner that you have a weak hand by responding 2♦ which shows 0-7 TP. It is an artificial bid and you don’t promise any diamonds. You’ve still got to keep bidding to game but at least your partner won’t be expecting anything from you." Bridge Bums: "3♣ - 8+ points and 5+ clubs." Bridge 7: "Responder bids 3♣ or 3♦ with 6+ card suit with two of top three honors and at least 8 HCP" RPbridge: "With 8+ HCP bid a five-card or longer suit (2 H, 2 S, 3 C or 3 D) or 2 NT if balanced" Wikipedia: "With "natural" responses, which is the most commonly used treatment, the 2♦ bid is artificial and very weak (up to 6 HCP). All other bids are natural and positive." I have to say, SAYC would call for a stronger suit, so that's 4 in favor of 3♣ and 2 opposed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
masonbarge Posted February 21, 2015 Report Share Posted February 21, 2015 Open 1♣ :blink: 1♣ is okay. The remote possibility of playing 1♣+6 just eats at me, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnu Posted February 21, 2015 Report Share Posted February 21, 2015 Bridge Doctor: "If your partner opens 2♣, you can warn partner that you have a weak hand by responding 2♦ which shows 0-7 TP. It is an artificial bid and you don’t promise any diamonds. You’ve still got to keep bidding to game but at least your partner won’t be expecting anything from you." Bridge Bums: "3♣ - 8+ points and 5+ clubs." Bridge 7: "Responder bids 3♣ or 3♦ with 6+ card suit with two of top three honors and at least 8 HCP" RPbridge: "With 8+ HCP bid a five-card or longer suit (2 H, 2 S, 3 C or 3 D) or 2 NT if balanced" Wikipedia: "With "natural" responses, which is the most commonly used treatment, the 2♦ bid is artificial and very weak (up to 6 HCP). All other bids are natural and positive." I have to say, SAYC would call for a stronger suit, so that's 4 in favor of 3♣ and 2 opposed. I consulted: Intermediate 1 - 2♦Intermediate 2 - 2♦Intermediate 3 - 2♦Advanced 1 - 2♦Advanced 2 - 2♦Advanced 3 - 2♦Expert 1 - 2♦Expert 2 - 2♦Expert 3 - 2♦, If my math is right, that's 11 opposed to 3♣, 4 (5 including you) in favor of 3♣ :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helene_t Posted February 21, 2015 Report Share Posted February 21, 2015 Unfortunately responder probably can't show support straight away. The hand imay be a tweener between 2and 3, and if 1c can be short not everyone likes to raise to 3 with such low odr. It helps to play weak nt and it helps not to play inv min. And obv playing pc or prec it is trivial as long as opps don't interfere. Playing standard it still ought to be possible though:1c-1nt2d-3cKeycards, ask for queen, 7c But of course to be confident you should have methods to learn about third round controls. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrAce Posted February 21, 2015 Report Share Posted February 21, 2015 Bridge Doctor: "If your partner opens 2♣, you can warn partner that you have a weak hand by responding 2♦ which shows 0-7 TP. It is an artificial bid and you don't promise any diamonds. You've still got to keep bidding to game but at least your partner won't be expecting anything from you." Bridge Bums: "3♣ - 8+ points and 5+ clubs." Bridge 7: "Responder bids 3♣ or 3♦ with 6+ card suit with two of top three honors and at least 8 HCP" RPbridge: "With 8+ HCP bid a five-card or longer suit (2 H, 2 S, 3 C or 3 D) or 2 NT if balanced" Wikipedia: "With "natural" responses, which is the most commonly used treatment, the 2♦ bid is artificial and very weak (up to 6 HCP). All other bids are natural and positive." I have to say, SAYC would call for a stronger suit, so that's 4 in favor of 3♣ and 2 opposed. I bid 2 NT if pd opens 2♣ with balanced hands. I would bid 2♦ over 2♣ only if 2♥ was spared for 2nd neg with clubs and more than 6 hcp. Otherwise, if 2♦ can be 0 hcp, 3♣ later will often mean 2nd negative, which makes things harder. However, the OP hand is different, if we bid 2♦ we are not scared to make a false 2nd negative because we will support whichever major pd bids. Anyway, I totally agree with Richard that starting 3♣ vs a 2♣ opener is not going to be in consideration by most of us. I would open 1♣ myself with N hand, though I can not really criticize 2♣ openers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helene_t Posted February 21, 2015 Report Share Posted February 21, 2015 Btw opening 1d, while strange, ahould work. In rhe op auction, 1n shows some clubs and 3nt almost certainly shows SQ so opener can at least bid 6. But I think S should bid 3h instead of 3nt and that would make it more difficult. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnu Posted February 21, 2015 Report Share Posted February 21, 2015 Btw opening 1d, while strange, ahould work. Maybe opening 1♦ might work (with better bidding later on ) for this hand because responder has 5 clubs and only 2 diamonds so they have a clear preference for clubs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted February 21, 2015 Report Share Posted February 21, 2015 Bridge Doctor: "If your partner opens 2♣, you can warn partner that you have a weak hand by responding 2♦ which shows 0-7 TP. It is an artificial bid and you don’t promise any diamonds. You’ve still got to keep bidding to game but at least your partner won’t be expecting anything from you." Bridge Bums: "3♣ - 8+ points and 5+ clubs.". Bridge 7: "Responder bids 3♣ or 3♦ with 6+ card suit with two of top three honors and at least 8 HCP" RPbridge: "With 8+ HCP bid a five-card or longer suit (2 H, 2 S, 3 C or 3 D) or 2 NT if balanced" Wikipedia: "With "natural" responses, which is the most commonly used treatment, the 2♦ bid is artificial and very weak (up to 6 HCP). All other bids are natural and positive." I have to say, SAYC would call for a stronger suit, so that's 4 in favor of 3♣ and 2 opposed. Couple quick comments: 1. Even if these web sites permit one to bid 3♣ with such a weak suit, I don't think that the authors would chose to do so with a balanced hand. I would much rather show a balanced positive than emphasize my club holding 2. Most of these sites are intended for novices. For example, Pavileck's basic system describes a 3♣ response as five card suit with 8+ HCP. However, if you look at the system that he actually plays - http://www.rpbridge.net/p/7g19.pdf - he requires a six card suit with two of the top three honors for a three level response. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Posted February 21, 2015 Report Share Posted February 21, 2015 I consulted: Intermediate 1 - 2♦Intermediate 2 - 2♦Intermediate 3 - 2♦Advanced 1 - 2♦Advanced 2 - 2♦Advanced 3 - 2♦Expert 1 - 2♦Expert 2 - 2♦Expert 3 - 2♦, If my math is right, that's 11 opposed to 3♣, 4 (5 including you) in favor of 3♣ :PWhat is 2♣-2NT in your country? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted February 21, 2015 Report Share Posted February 21, 2015 I guess this is as good a time to give Chris Ryall's three suited method another plug, See his web page for full details... 2 clubs as "strong unbalanced" handling 3 suiters I have also posted this method in response to random strong three suited hands, like this one, as well as described the method with example hands from time to time,.. For instance this thread where I introduced the concept 4441 and 5440 hands in forcing 2C with some examples followed up by this one with 30 'BBO exxample hands (More on 4441 or 4450 hands and 2C ) . This method works very well, but you need a method to handle the normal 2C-2D-2NT type hands (like playing multi with a strong balanced option). On this hand the bidding would be.. [hv=d=n&v=0&b=1&a=2cp2dp2np3cp4dp4hp4ntp5hp6dp7cppp]133|100[/hv] You can read Chris's webpage to see this is bid as exactly per his method, but here is the meaning of the bids. 2D semi positive or better, 2NT three suiter, strong3C first asking bid, show losers and short suit4D short heart, 2-3 losers4h Second Ask, exact loser ask and is short suit singleton or void?4NT: 3 losers, heart void (two black queens cover two of the three losers, if Diamond queen is missing, doubleton will cover that)....5H Third asking for controls, A=2, K=1. with 2,3 loser give number of controls starting at 6...6D fifth step = 9 controls (so AK,AK.AK)7C blam...you might have five diamonds or five clubs the way Chris plays, but not five spades, I allow five spades Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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