Return to partner's major

[VixTD]

I feel this should go in the beginners' forum, but it generated a lot of discussion among the better players at the club last night:

[hv=pc=n&s=skj73hak5d93cat63&d=s&v=e&b=3&a=1sp2hp4hp4sp]133|200[/hv]

Playing teams and Acol with a 12-14 NT and in an infrequent partnership, I was faced with this decision. 2♥ showed 5+ hearts and 10+ hcp, a one-round force. I had no reason to believe that 3♥ from me would have been forcing.

 

What do you think 4♠ should mean?

[helene_t]

This is a cuebid.

 

There is a case for playing 3h as forcing if you always treat 5332 as balanced but obv this is not part of standard acol.

[NickRW]

What do you think 4♠ should mean?

 

Not sure I can answer without knowing if p had a forcing spade raise option (one would hope so, but you can't assume it)

[mgoetze]

What do you think 4♠ should mean?

It's RKCB for hearts. I can't answer the poll without knowing whether we play 1430 or 3041.

[VixTD]

Not sure I can answer without knowing if p had a forcing spade raise option (one would hope so, but you can't assume it)

We don't, we only play together once an month so keep it simple. (Obviously 4♠ is not RCKB for hearts or anything else.)

[gszes]

There is far too much chance responder made a temporizing 2h bid with the intention of converting to spades at the appropriate level. If responder had extra values the fact that you leaped to 4h surely would have triggered some slam move. The (probable) lack of a forcing major suit raise makes for a lot of temporizing. With AQxx QJT(x) Q(x) xx(xx) we have a horrid time bidding anything other than 2H and converting 4h to 4s. It is all well and good to say responder "promises" 5 hearts but compromises are made all of the time as long as there is a "safe" outlet (4s in this case).

[mikeh]

There is far too much chance responder made a temporizing 2h bid with the intention of converting to spades at the appropriate level. If responder had extra values the fact that you leaped to 4h surely would have triggered some slam move. The (probable) lack of a forcing major suit raise makes for a lot of temporizing. With AQxx QJT(x) Q(x) xx(xx) we have a horrid time bidding anything other than 2H and converting 4h to 4s. It is all well and good to say responder "promises" 5 hearts but compromises are made all of the time as long as there is a "safe" outlet (4s in this case).

This is inconsistent with bridge logic. It has been generally accepted for at least the last 50 years or so that if one is going to temporize over partner's 1♠ opening with a hand that cannot make a systemic conventional raise, one bids 2m, almost always 2♣, altho with 3=4=4=2 some would be reluctant to do so and would choose 2♦. All beyond the most basic beginner would have a conventional forcing raise available with 4 card support and no side 5+ suit that they wanted to show.

 

With your suggested hand of a 4=4 major suit 11 count, one either limit raises or one uses the conventional game force raise, depending on style and mood. With the extreme of your suggestion, AQxx QJ10x Q xxxx, one would splinter or bid 2♣.

 

Now, when I say 'generally accepted' for 50 years or more, I am basing that on my reading (and playing) for the past 40+ years, my reading of the Bridge World based on having ALL copies of that publication from 1937 to 2010 or so, and having an extensive collection of bridge books dating back to and far beyond the creation of the game we play.

 

As for the OP, I have not played any method in which 3♥ would not have been forcing, so I can't speak from experience with that method, but logic suggests that 4♠ is forcing, and thus a cuebid.

 

Consider a hand like Ax QJxxxx AKx xx

 

What else is he to do? Bid keycard? And find KQJxx AKxx xx Qx? Nice bidding.

[neilkaz]

We don't, we only play together once an month so keep it simple. (Obviously 4♠ is not RCKB for hearts or anything else.)

OK since you lack a forcing trump raise I changed my vote to pass 4♠

 

Then again, I am not terribly familiar with Acol and wouldn't want to play a method where 2♥ could ever be 4 cards only.

 

EDIT: For me playing 2/1 or S/A where I have a forcing trump raise this sequence is a cue bid probing for slam.

[helene_t]

2h is a five card suit in acol.

[Cyberyeti]

What do you do with a 4522 delayed game raise type hand if you have no forcing raise ? I'd ask whether 1♠-3♥ covers this as a fit-jump.

[masonbarge]

I feel this should go in the beginners' forum, but it generated a lot of discussion among the better players at the club last night:

[hv=pc=n&s=skj73hak5d93cat63&d=s&v=e&b=3&a=1sp2hp4hp4sp]133|200[/hv]

Playing teams and Acol with a 12-14 NT and in an infrequent partnership, I was faced with this decision. 2♥ showed 5+ hearts and 10+ hcp, a one-round force. I had no reason to believe that 3♥ from me would have been forcing.

 

What do you think 4♠ should mean?

 

How could it mean anything but a spade control? All you lack for 6♥ is a diamond control and the way to tell him this is 5♣.

[blackshoe]

There is far too much chance responder made a temporizing 2h bid with the intention of converting to spades at the appropriate level. If responder had extra values the fact that you leaped to 4h surely would have triggered some slam move. The (probable) lack of a forcing major suit raise makes for a lot of temporizing. With AQxx QJT(x) Q(x) xx(xx) we have a horrid time bidding anything other than 2H and converting 4h to 4s. It is all well and good to say responder "promises" 5 hearts but compromises are made all of the time as long as there is a "safe" outlet (4s in this case).

It's been a long time since I played Acol, but as I recall, 3♥ would be a limit raise, and that hand looks like a limit raise to me, so that's what I would bid. With a stiff diamond I might consider 4♦, but that's a lot of quacks for that bid.

[MrAce]

This is written "cue" all over it.

[helene_t]

It's been a long time since I played Acol, but as I recall, 3♥ would be a limit raise, and that hand looks like a limit raise to me, so that's what I would bid. With a stiff diamond I might consider 4♦, but that's a lot of quacks for that bid.

6 controls and a small doubleton makes it a game bid. P bid at the twolevel so he wants to be in game opposite a balanced 15.

 

But maybe 2nt is a better rebid than 4h. I bid 4h with a pickup p though.

[Trump Echo]

I'd see 4♠ as a cue bid showing mild slam interest. I'd answer 5 Clubs. With a weak opening hand, I'd retreat to 5 Hearts, but that's not the case here.

[fromageGB]

With no forcing spade raise and "keep it simple" I think 4♠ is to play.

Of course not ideal, but better methods involve complexity/agreement/artificiality/understandings.

 

♠AQ42

♥QT93

♦Q2

♣842

I would imagine many people with no agreements would be reluctant to bid 2♣, and perhaps 2♥ is the least lie.

[MrAce]

With no forcing spade raise and "keep it simple" I think 4♠ is to play.

Of course not ideal, but better methods involve complexity/agreement/artificiality/understandings.

 

♠AQ42

♥QT93

♦Q2

♣842

I would imagine many people with no agreements would be reluctant to bid 2♣, and perhaps 2♥ is the least lie.

 

Isn't this hand 1♠-3♠ ?

[fromageGB]

Isn't this hand 1♠-3♠ ?

I have seen some people play that a 3M raise is pre-emptive rather than invitational, denying the strength for a 2 over 1. However, you could be right.

[MrAce]

I have seen some people play that a 3M raise is pre-emptive rather than invitational, denying the strength for a 2 over 1. However, you could be right.

 

Yes, I thought about this. But then again, if 3♠ is preemptive, they are either playing bergen raises and/or artificial 2/1 responses, both of which tells us "with no agreements" condition should not be the case.

[The_Badger]

Having agreed the trump suit as ♥s, as MrAce (and others) have said 4♠s is definitely a cue. It is not a delayed game raise. Now here is where my thinking differs from those advocating bidding 5♣ in response. Responder having bid 4♠ is angling for a slam. Bidding 5 ♣ seems mandatory but you could hold 3 small ♥s for your raise to 4♥. What responder would like to know is that you have AK ♥s and A♣ if he is interested in a grand slam. By bidding 4NT - if using RKCB - you will establish whether partner has ♠A (most likely as he has cue bid) together with the ♦A and ♥Q. If he responds 5 ♠ showing the 2 aces and queen of trumps, you then bid 5NT showing all the controls are covered and the trump suit is sound and he can then choose to bid the grand.

 

If partner responds 5♣, 5♦ or 5♥ to your RKCB response, then you'd just have to trust him and bid 6♥s yourself. If you both have 2 losing diamonds, c'est la vie :)

 

The point I'm making is that maybe partner initiated a series of cues with 4♠ whereas he should be bidding 4NT himself to establish what cards you actually hold. And...how else can you tell partner what great trump support you have for him?

 

Cue bids might get you to the small slam, but will it get you to the grand? With Acol partner will know that when you bid 4 ♥s to his 2♥ response you have at least 15-16 points with three card trump support. If he wanted to stay in game, he could have, so I am of the opinion he has quite a strong hand, suitable for small slam definitely, suitable for a grand slam possibly.

[steve2005]

With no forcing spade raise and "keep it simple" I think 4♠ is to play.

Of course not ideal, but better methods involve complexity/agreement/artificiality/understandings.

 

♠AQ42

♥QT93

♦Q2

♣842

I would imagine many people with no agreements would be reluctant to bid 2♣, and perhaps 2♥ is the least lie.

This is a limit raise, no need to temporize and muddle your sure ♠ fit

[steve2005]

Yes, I thought about this. But then again, if 3♠ is preemptive, they are either playing bergen raises and/or artificial 2/1 responses, both of which tells us "with no agreements" condition should not be the case.

Their not playing anything fancy like Bergen so 3♠ is limit. I cant believe they have no forcing ♠ raise. In Acol some sort of 4♣/4♦ Swiss raise is common and is not very useful as natural bid. in North America most play 2N and splinters as a raise. Many also use 3N as some sort of raise.

[all loomis]

is 1 club out of the question?

[Cyberyeti]

is 1 club out of the question?

 

Old style Acol opens 1♠, we would open 1♣ and start 1♣-1♥-1N(15-bad 19)-2♣(art ask)-2♥(15-16, 3♥, may still have 4♠) now 2♠ would be nat F and we'd find out whether 4♠ was natural at the 2 level.

[VixTD]

Thanks for the replies. My partner held ♠A986 ♥QJ432 ♦Q7 ♣J8, which looks like a limit raise to 3♠ to me. I understand the difficulties he might have had with no way to make a forcing spade raise, but I didn't dare leave him in 4♠ in case he was cue-bidding. He kept insisting that he would never make a cue-bid in my first-bid suit, but that was far from obvious to me. I couldn't see why he shouldn't have the hand mikeh suggests.

 

I bid 5♣, which I'm pleased to see has a commanding lead in the poll. I went two off in 5♥, but luckily no game was making.