barmar Posted February 23, 2015 Report Share Posted February 23, 2015 Winston Churchill put it well:History is written by the victorsThe proposed curriculum is attempting to reverse the inherent bias that comes from that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeh Posted February 23, 2015 Report Share Posted February 23, 2015 Don't hold me too literally to the word "interpretations". I was trying to get at the difference between "Did this or did this not happen?" and "What lessons can be drawn from what happened". A current example would be Obama's recent reference to the horrors of the Crusades and the Inquisition in discussing current terrorism. Exactly what happened during the Crusades and the Inquision can be, and is, debated but they toook place and few would deny that they were awful, even if some would downplay some of the horrs. That takes care of "Did it happen?". Turning to the second question about lessons to be drawn. What are they? Presumably no one is arguing that because of the Inquisition we should simply say "Oh well, beheading people, shooting school children and setting peoople on fire is just one of thoise things humans do, no big deal". But if that is not the purpose of bringing it up, what was the purpose? So people would not get on their high horse? That's it? So I am claiming: Learning facts about the Inqusition is one thing, students should learn these facts. How these facts apply to ISIS is another matter. I mean this as an example of the distinction between facts and interpretations. Pick another example if you don't like this one.Bear in mind that Obama is speaking as a politician and also a statesman, with motivations that have very little to do with conveying a history lesson. He needs the majority of Muslims in the US and the rest of the world to see efforts against ISIS and other (Muslim) terror organizations as being actions against terrorists and not Muslims. He desperately wants, and the West needs, to avoid allowing extremist propaganda to describe the Western response as part of a clash of cultures or beliefs, lest even more disaffected young men join the terrorists. Fox News and most of the Republican Party play directly into the aims of the terrorists, as did that US general who famously told his troops, priortothe invasion of Iraq, that they were modern-day crusaders As an atheist, I do fear that we are indeed facing a clash or war of cultures. There are striking similarities between the world views of Xian and Muslim extremists, the main difference, it seems to me, being that there are far more Muslims living lives of humiliation, desperation and futility than there are Xians in the same boat. It seems to me that the reason for religiously-inspired terror is not found in the religion, although religion makes for a powerful tool, but rather in social and economic factors. It is too bad that the US government, and the Israelis, see economic repression and remote-control killing as the appropriate response rather than economic aid. Give the Palestinians equal financial aid as is given to Israel, and the hatred of Palestinians for the US would likely fade away. Of course, preventing that aid from being used to attack Israel might be a problem. I admire Obama for doing his best to show Muslims that he knows that the West ought not to be at war with Islam, but I fear it is too little, too late, since far too much of the US establishment acts as if it were. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted February 23, 2015 Report Share Posted February 23, 2015 2) The interpretation of those facts, with the morals of today, will be different from the historical interpretation of those facts. And, probably, this interpretation will change again. As a quick example: When I went to a calvinist elementary school in the '70s (in an area that was dominated by Calvinism), the crusades were a good thing, and so was the iconoclasm of the 16th century. When my kids went to a catholic elementary school (we live about 30 miles from where I grew up and here Catholicism is dominant), they learned that the iconoclasm was barbaric. Now, a few years later in high school, they learn something different: There is not really a religious point of view. The iconoclasm was seen as a catalyst for the Dutch revolution. (And the fact that the Dutch Revolution happened is obviously something positive. Perhaps they think different about that in Spain. I would be interested in hearing what e.g. Fluffy learned in school about the wars that Philip II fought in the 16th century. Or about the inquisition for that matter.) I didn't even know about protestant iconoclasm until this morning. (We only studied what happened in Byzantium and within Islam) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billw55 Posted February 23, 2015 Report Share Posted February 23, 2015 http://www.theguardi...t-nightmare-snlI ignore her the same as any other foolish celebrity. Kim Kardashian, Justin Beiber, Sarah Palin ... whatever. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billw55 Posted February 23, 2015 Report Share Posted February 23, 2015 ... It is too bad that the US government, and the Israelis, see economic repression and remote-control killing as the appropriate response rather than economic aid. Give the Palestinians equal financial aid as is given to Israel, and the hatred of Palestinians for the US would likely fade away. Of course, preventing that aid from being used to attack Israel might be a problem. ...A pretty big problem. Even if the premise is true, there would certainly be a lag time of at least several years before attitudes changed. Realistically, two or three generations might be needed - basically, waiting for the old attitudes to die out. In the mean time, a significant amount of the aid would most certainly end up being used to attack Israel, the USA, France, or indeed any target in western society. That's going to be a tough sell. I have often wondered what the difference is from other nations that were once enemies. After WW2, I am not aware of ongoing terrorist or guerilla warfare against occupying forces in Japan or Germany. Maybe I just need to learn better history? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenberg Posted February 23, 2015 Report Share Posted February 23, 2015 If Obama were to ask me, I might suggest the following formulation: "Martin Luther King once sai 'I look to the day when people will be judged not by the color of their skin but by the content of their character'. I wish to extend this to say that the content of their character is far more important than which Church, which Synagogue, which Mosque they attend, if indeed they attend any at all". Interestingly, he could find some support for this general approach from the right. The Wik quotes Barry Goldwater, whose mother was Protestant and whose father was Jewish, as saying: "If a man acts in a religious way, an ethical way, then he's really a religious man—and it doesn't have a lot to do with how often he gets inside a church." With respect to Muslims and ISIS, the obvious fact is that if ISIS were in charge not only would Christians suffer, so would the vast majority of Muslims who have no interest at all in conforming to ISIS fundamentalism. Instead of bringing up the Inquisition, it might be more effective to note that the Ten Commandments forbid adultery but most of us, Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Atheist, whatever, do not agree with stoning an adulteress to death or even wish to paint a big A on her chest. It is not reasonable to expect perfection. We do not always live up to our ideals. But we need to not kill each other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trinidad Posted February 23, 2015 Report Share Posted February 23, 2015 Give the Palestinians equal financial aid as is given to Israel, and the hatred of Palestinians for the US would likely fade away. Of course, preventing that aid from being used to attack Israel might be a problem.The EU has given financial aid to the Palestinians. When democracy was brought to Gaza (remember that Hamas won democratic elections) Gaza Airport and harbor were rebuilt with EU money to build up the economy in Gaza. ... and then they were destroyed again by the Israelis with US money... As long as the US keep backing Israel, no matter what, it simply doesn't make much sense to aid the Palestinians: The Israelis will attack anything that leads to a somewhat functioning economy in Gaza... with the blessings of the US. Rik 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trinidad Posted February 23, 2015 Report Share Posted February 23, 2015 I didn't even know about protestant iconoclasm until this morning. (We only studied what happened in Byzantium and within Islam)One can't know everything. But I suppose you know why Catholic (and -to a somewhat lesser extent- Lutheran) churches are full of statues of a large variety of saints and Calvinist (or Zwingliist) churches are not. Rik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenberg Posted February 23, 2015 Report Share Posted February 23, 2015 At any rate, this all supports my claim about the Standards, that questions about what happened are tough enough, questions about how to interpret what happened are unlikely to have clear enough answers so that a student could pass or fail depending oi how he answers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winstonm Posted February 23, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2015 My issue with the dissenters is that they are arguing that only positive aspects of US history should be taught, regardless of facts - not much different than the notion of teaching pre-schoolers "Jesus loves me this I know for the bible tell me so" in Sunday School - fiction is fiction regardless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nige1 Posted February 23, 2015 Report Share Posted February 23, 2015 At any rate, this all supports my claim about the Standards, that questions about what happened are tough enough, questions about how to interpret what happened are unlikely to have clear enough answers so that a student could pass or fail depending oi how he answers. Birth, and copulation, and death. That's all the facts when you come to brass tacks: Birth, and copulation, and death. Some truisms: It's hard for you to separate fact from interpretation. You decide which "facts" are "true". You select facts. You ignore others. You choose the (weasel?) words to express those facts. Thus, news media use Newspeak (e.g. when describing recent events in the Ukraine).Learning facts is less important than learning how to draw conclusions from them. You interpret facts to decide what to do. So you should teach this vital life-skill to children. For assessment purposes, however: your conclusions are less important than your reasoning process. (The converse of real-life). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenberg Posted February 23, 2015 Report Share Posted February 23, 2015 My issue with the dissenters is that they are arguing that only positive aspects of US history should be taught, regardless of facts - not much different than the notion of teaching pre-schoolers "Jesus loves me this I know for the bible tell me so" in Sunday School - fiction is fiction regardless. With this I certainly agree. For elementary students I don't think we have to go into gruesome details of history but even for them I think that the history that they are taught should be history that will stand up in later and closer examination. For a high school student age 16 or so, taking an AP course, surely significant events need to be presented accurately. My sense of history, whether of the U.S. or whatever, is that a great deal of it is barbaric. For me, this leads to a great appreciation of successful efforts to rise above this cruelty. And a sense of caution that such efforts often are unsuccessful. I am not sure that I could turn this view into a final exam question. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helene_t Posted February 24, 2015 Report Share Posted February 24, 2015 My sense of history, whether of the U.S. or whatever, is that a great deal of it is barbaric. For me, this leads to a great appreciation of successful efforts to rise above this cruelty. And a sense of caution that such efforts often are unsuccessful. I am not sure that I could turn this view into a final exam question."My teacher is a barbarian but his parents are worse. True or false?" True=10 pointsFalse=0 points. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike777 Posted February 24, 2015 Report Share Posted February 24, 2015 "Criticism Faculty at a number of universities have expressed doubts about the value of a passing AP score. Highly capable students who receive scores of 3 or 4, but not the perfect 5, are being given college credit at fewer universities. Academic departments also criticise the increasing proportion of students who take and pass AP courses but are not ready for college-level work.[27]"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Placement----------------- I like this approach: "if I was teaching history I would make people memorize the sequence of certain events, front to back, at the start of the class, and then go back and go over them slowly." Students need to at least know the sequence of historical events without the need to look at their machines. But I fear many will say, why when I can just look it up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barmar Posted February 24, 2015 Report Share Posted February 24, 2015 Students need to at least know the sequence of historical events without the need to look at their machines. But I fear many will say, why when I can just look it up.In this day and age, there's little need for memorizing all the detailed facts (e.g. exact places and dates) -- that's what we have the Internet for. We should concentrate on understanding and placing all these facts into context, our devices can't do that for us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenberg Posted February 24, 2015 Report Share Posted February 24, 2015 "Criticism Faculty at a number of universities have expressed doubts about the value of a passing AP score. Highly capable students who receive scores of 3 or 4, but not the perfect 5, are being given college credit at fewer universities. Academic departments also criticise the increasing proportion of students who take and pass AP courses but are not ready for college-level work.[27]"http://en.wikipedia....anced_Placement----------------- This could get into vigorous debate, but here is my view: At a typical university with a large Engineering program, the more mathematically oriented engineers will be taking Calculus I, II, and III (and other math courses as well such as Linear Algebra). Engineering is a very packed curriculum and if a student is to finish in four years s/he had better come in with some AP credit. For those starting with Calc I: A C in Calc I is ominous for Calc II and a C in Calc II is ominous for Calc III. This is not because we give away Cs. Math departments are not usually the departments that critics are speaking of when they decry easy grading. Go by analogy to AP credit: If a C in Calc I is ominous for Calc II, why would anyone think the situation would be different for someone with a 3 in the AP course? I have not made a great study of AP exams, but from what I have seen I regard them as quite good. It is simply in the nature of mathematics in general and calculus in particular that you need a pretty solid foundation in the first course to do well in the next. I imagine the same is true in Drench. A C student in French I can expect to have trouble in French II. I do admit to not having looked in great detail at all of this, but really I have no quarrel with the AP Math exams. Expecting a score of 4 rather than 3 in order to get college credit, or especially to go on to the next course up, makes sense to me. I like this approach: "if I was teaching history I would make people memorize the sequence of certain events, front to back, at the start of the class, and then go back and go over them slowly." Students need to at least know the sequence of historical events without the need to look at their machines. But I fear many will say, why when I can just look it up. It's a mix, but yes, facts are useful. So is the web. I have enormous gaps in my knowledge. Who doesn't? Yes the web is useful, very useful, for filling gaps. But we have to know something to use it intelligently. Earlier in this thread I used the web to help me think through something in the standards about negotiations with Spain over navigation on the Mississippi. Some items I never knew, some I had forgotten. But I had a place to start. I left up something of a chain of my thinking, but it was something like this: Spain? Why not France? The time period was from after the creation of the U.S. and before the Louisianan Purchase. Oh yes, but wait. France had grabbed it from Spain, I then vaguely recalled. And if the USA was negotiating, it had to be after 1789 or so, the "or so" meaning that 1789 was when George Washington took office but I wasn't sure when "The United States" became an official entity. There was the writing of the Constitution, the ratification of the Constitution, the election of Senators and Representatives as well as the President, the establishment of diplomatic relations. Anyway, 1789 or so sounds right. So sure, the web is helpful for getting all of this right, France grabbed it from Spain in 1800, so 1789-1800 the negotiations would be with Spain. But I need to know something to get started, or at least it made it a lot easier. Facts are useful, and it is easier to test on facts. But of course this does lead to a difficulty. I want students to think and interpret, but if we start to test on this there is a real danger that it will effectively become "I want you to think and interpret and now I will tell you what you must think and how you must interpret in order to pass." In other words, don't think and interpret, memorize what you are to say when you are asked to think and interpret. I think that the exams must be heavy on facts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akwoo Posted February 24, 2015 Report Share Posted February 24, 2015 I think you're simplifying the problem too far. First of all, what you are calling 'facts' aren't somehow qualitatively different from what you call 'interpretations'. Your 'facts' are simply interpretations that are widely agreed upon. This is not to say that the agreement is arbitrary; there is almost always a very good reason why we have all agreed upon these interpretations, frequently to the extent we don't even notice there is interpretation going on. (Yes, I would say this is the case even for mathematics.) Second, the ability to think and interpret is really important, and I think our schools do very poorly at it, and I also think we need a mechanism to encourage them to do better. We can't encourage them to do better without having some way (which does not have to be a test) of figuring out whether they are improving or not. It is indeed possible to test for interpretation in a neutral way; for example one can separate the instructor from the examiner(s), and form committees of graders whose biases cancel each other out. Of course, this is a good deal more expensive than running a scantron through a machine, and also more expensive, though by a smaller margin, than what the AP does to grade long response answers. Third, I think you are pointing out that grade inflation is a serious problem. A student who is likely to have serious difficulties in Calc II because of lack of mastery of previous material should not get a grade of C in Calc I. (I might add that, based on what I have seen of the curriculum and the grading standards, I don't think anyone with less than an A in 'Math for Elementary Educators' should be allowed to teach elementary school.) This is not to say that I am not guilty of grade inflation myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtK78 Posted February 24, 2015 Report Share Posted February 24, 2015 This could get into vigorous debate, but here is my view: At a typical university with a large Engineering program, the more mathematically oriented engineers will be taking Calculus I, II, and III (and other math courses as well such as Linear Algebra). Engineering is a very packed curriculum and if a student is to finish in four years s/he had better come in with some AP credit. Wow. I graduated high school in 1974. I took Linear Algebra in 11th grade and Calculus (I guess what you call Calc I) in 12th grade. I got a 4 on my AP math test and got advanced placement in college. A C in Calc I is ominous for Calc II and a C in Calc II is ominous for Calc III. This is not because we give away Cs. Math departments are not usually the departments that critics are speaking of when they decry easy grading. I have a funny story about grading (it didn't seem so funny at the time, but I digress). In my sophomore year at Princeton, I took what turned out to be my last math course - Differential Equations. This was a course intended for math majors, but I didn't know when to stop yet. I knew I was in trouble part way through the course, as I was having serious difficulties even understanding the point of the problems. In any event, the course was taught by two math professors - each teaching their own class of about 12 students. They gave the same final exam. When the results were given, I got a C+. Needless to say, I was not happy about the grade, so I met with the professor who taught my class. He did say that he had a problem with my grade on the final exam, as one of the students in the other class had essentially the same score that I had and his professor gave him an A-. When they got together to compare results on the final exam, they discussed our test results. Their conclusion - we both got C+. Another funny story about math classes at Princeton. As i said, I got advanced placement, so I started out in an honors math course my first semester at Princeton. On the second day, the teaching assistant teaching our section of the course asked if anyone completed the first problem assigned after our first day. For about 10 seconds, no one responded. Then one guy got up (he turned out to be our class Valedictorian) and said he would given it a try. So he goes up to the chalkboard and starts writing. When he got halfway across the board, he looked at what he wrote and said "That doesn't seem right," and he erased it all. Then he started writing again. After taking up half the chalk board again he said, "That looks right." The TA looked at what he had written, and asked, "Any questions?" I dropped the course the next day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike777 Posted February 24, 2015 Report Share Posted February 24, 2015 Interesting. I graduated a few years before you but I never heard of AP classes. I guess they have been around since at least 1955 but I never heard any students taking them or that they even existed. We were a small HS associated with the local University. I suppose we could have just taken the Univ class but I don't recall that being a big thing outside of computer stuff. Now of course this was not Princeton but a state school. As for downgrading the fact portion of learning I understand how critical thinking is always said to be so important but it seems at least in history so many students don't know the sequence of history. I mean the basic facts such as when was the American Civil War and who fought in it, was it Japan or china? Was it Washington or Lincoln who led the fight on D-Day? Was using Dinosaurs in the battle of New Orleans animal cruelty and do you agree with using them? DO you agree with explorers Lewis and Clark and their protests of the Vietnam War? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barmar Posted February 25, 2015 Report Share Posted February 25, 2015 A C in Calc I is ominous for Calc II and a C in Calc II is ominous for Calc III. This is not because we give away Cs. Math departments are not usually the departments that critics are speaking of when they decry easy grading. Go by analogy to AP credit: If a C in Calc I is ominous for Calc II, why would anyone think the situation would be different for someone with a 3 in the AP course? I have not made a great study of AP exams, but from what I have seen I regard them as quite good. It is simply in the nature of mathematics in general and calculus in particular that you need a pretty solid foundation in the first course to do well in the next. I imagine the same is true in Drench. A C student in French I can expect to have trouble in French II. It seems to me that if you did so poorly in a class that you'd be unprepared for the next class in the sequence, you should have gotten a failing grade, since passing the class is generally considered the prerequisite for taking the next one. You might have to work harder to keep up, and you could take a C or D as suggesting that you might go in a different direction (if you were considering a major that requires proficiency in math, rethink that). If a student at an actual college receives full credit for getting a C or D in a class, why shouldn't an AP student get the same credit for a 3 on the test? One issue is whether the college considers the AP class to be comparable to their analogous class. I went to MIT, and their classses tend to be much more advanced than most other schools, so they're very limited in which AP credits they'll grant. http://web.mit.edu/firstyear/2018/subjects/incomingcredit/ap.html. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenberg Posted February 26, 2015 Report Share Posted February 26, 2015 exactly what a C should mean can be tricky. Princeton, MIT and The University of Maryland are different schools. At UMD there are students who take Calc I because their major requires it, and do not take Calc II because their major does not require it. We have three main Calculus sequences because of the wide diversity of needs, but in amy of thewse versions there are students who only need one semester. In addition, a student might simply decide on his/her own that s/he would like a semester of Calc but no more. Since much of the world is math phobic this might seem impossible so let's turn again to French, The first time I was in Paris I was travellling by myself and I would ask someone if s/he spoke English. The answer was always No, or perhaps Non. After a particularly frustrating experience with an attractive woman who seemed more than willing to talk if we could get past the language barrier (I was not married at the time) I decided that I had passed the written exam in French so what the hell, I should be able to do this. At least I set out to try. My high point was a conversation at a pier for boat rides on the Seine where I came to understand that the boats were not going out because the water was too high but they might be re-opening in a couple of days. The point here is that French I with a C would have been useful, although I had no intention of taking French II. I explored many avenues while I was in college. I took Philosophy of Religion from Paul Holmer, I took Roman Humanities from John Berryman. Both were fine courses, I planned to pursue neither. I got an A in Holmer's course, a C in Berryman's. Berryman lived in his own space. For example on the first day of class he announced that he teaches Roman Humanities as a course in the Origins of Christianity. So we read Dante and St. Thomas, and all the Letters of Paul, instead of Cicero and Caesar. It's ok, and so was the C. Berryman was a difficult but extremely worthwhile experience. Imo, the grade of C means: You passed, but we don't recommend this as a career choice. Art recalls some stories, i could give several from my past.Example: I switched from Physics to Math. While a Physiocs major I had taken a substantial course in Dynamics and I had done well in it. The Math Dept. also required a course in dynamics but for reasons that are beyond understanding they wanted me to take the course that was offered by the Department of Mechanics and Materials. I argued with both Math and with M&M but no dice. I quote the great Hank Williams, albeit on a different subject She warned me once, she warned me twiceBut I don't take no one's advice. I figured they can make me enroll, but they can't make me attend. I will have to show up for exams, I supposed. On the first exam one of the questions totally stumped me. On my way to lunch I was giving this problem to a friend, saying that I really didn't see how to do it. The Prof., whom I had not recognized, was standing nearby and remarked "You should come to class once in a while and you would learn how to solve problems like that". He had a point. Anyway, I am fine with a C as an announcement that the student has passed but if s/he expects to go on them more effort will be required. Probably considerably more since the next course builds on the previous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackshoe Posted February 26, 2015 Report Share Posted February 26, 2015 And if the USA was negotiating, it had to be after 1789 or so, the "or so" meaning that 1789 was when George Washington took office but I wasn't sure when "The United States" became an official entity. There was the writing of the Constitution, the ratification of the Constitution, the election of Senators and Representatives as well as the President, the establishment of diplomatic relations. Anyway, 1789 or so sounds right. So sure, the web is helpful for getting all of this right, France grabbed it from Spain in 1800, so 1789-1800 the negotiations would be with Spain. But I need to know something to get started, or at least it made it a lot easier.Don't forget the original Confederacy, founded in November, 1777 with the Articles of Confederation. The fledgling United States was first recognized as a nation — by Morocco — in April 1778, but France had apparently "decided" to recognize the country earlier, in December 1777, after our victory in the Battle of Saratoga (October 1777). In 1789, the Jay-Gardoqui Treaty would have given Spain exclusive right to navigate the Mississippi River for 30 years, but the US did not ratify it due to opposition from Western US citizens. Our war of 1812 actually started (between England and France) in 1793. Until 1812 we were neutral, and did business with both sides. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenberg Posted February 26, 2015 Report Share Posted February 26, 2015 Yes, but the Standards particularly mentioned negotiations of the United States with Spain, and as far as I know the Confederated States were called the Confederation, or some such, and not the United States. So if the United States negotiated with Spain, it was 1789 or later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackshoe Posted February 26, 2015 Report Share Posted February 26, 2015 Yes, but the Standards particularly mentioned negotiations of the United States with Spain, and as far as I know the Confederated States were called the Confederation, or some such, and not the United States. So if the United States negotiated with Spain, it was 1789 or later.From wikipedia: In 1777 the Articles of Confederation announced, "The Stile of this Confederacy shall be 'The United States of America'". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenberg Posted February 26, 2015 Report Share Posted February 26, 2015 From wikipedia: In 1777 the Articles of Confederation announced, "The Stile of this Confederacy shall be 'The United States of America'". Ah ha. OK, I learn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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