I'm sure I stuffed this

[the hog]

All nv

P (1D) and you hold

 

Q

AKQTxxx

void

KJTxx

 

Your bid? You have 2NT available to show a specific H/C 2 suiter. Do you bid this?

Opposite a passed hand I felt that was against the odds.

Bidding proceeded:

 

P (1D) 4H (4S)

5H (5S) ??

 

You have put yourself in your own stew; what do you do now?

[flytoox]

Simple answer would be 6H/6C. The problem is that they may bid 6S and even worse pd lead a heart and they make it.

 

I will try 6D, hoping pd can receive the message.

[ochinko]

I pass. Everything else would be jumping in the dark. The only thing that is left for me now is to ask myself why didn't I intervene with a simple 1H bid, although 4H can be somewhat justified after partner's initial pass.

[Walddk]

I will try 6D, hoping pd can receive the message.

PASS. If South raises to 6♠, I will risk a double, asking for a diamond lead. So there is no reason to bid 6♦ as lead-directing, as long as partner is on the same wavelength.

 

Roland

[whereagles]

Complicated situation... seems like they make 5 or 6S, but not 7. Since pass might miss a decent save, I am going to bid 6H. If they outbid me to 6S, I think it's better to take insurance and bid 7H.

 

The idea of 6D as a lead-director is interesting, but I must confess it didn't cross my mind :rolleyes:

[luis]

First of all I hate the situation but I like the 4♥ bid, it's just too unlucky that they did have a 4♠ bid. Had I started with 2NT I would be embarrased after 3♠-4♥-4♠ thinking that an initial 4♥ could have shut them.

Now the 5♥ bid by my passed hand pd is scary, I would like to know about his style and the options he have to open the bidding. I think I'm going to pass 5♠ because I'm really really afraid they may have a spade slam here.

[mike777]

6D

 

Not only lead directing but may get them to not bid 6s.

[Walddk]

6D

 

Not only lead directing but may get them to not bid 6s.

The problem is, however, that they will now be in a better decision to judge if they should bid 6♠ or not. Your 6♦ call told South that you have a diamond ruff. So South will only pass when it's right - and also only bid 6♠ when that is right.

 

Roland

[inquiry]

Whatever four hearts was, you have bid your hand. Your partner, could have bid 5♣ or 5♦ to invite your furhter participation. Sure you hand is unexpected, but you can hardly bid 6♥ here. Pass and move on to the next hand very soon. BTW, if partner had bid 5♣ over 4♠ now I bid the slam with ligthner double ready when they bid six spades. In fact, I might want to construct the auction such if partner has the magic Ax xxxx xxx AQx we can use a forcing pass over 6♠ to suggest grand slam...so here, if the bidding was...

 

 P-1D-4H-4S

5C-5S-?

 

I would want to bid 6D despite the earlier dire warning that this alerts the opponents. Here this is not lead director, it allows partner to pass 6S with the magic hand (forcing pass). Where as if I just blast to 6H, a pass by partner can not be a forcing pass. On the other hand, the 6D cue-bid will screw up the lightner double meaning of a double by you, because your partner will wack 6S in front of you without the spade ace... but at least the 6D cue-will get him off to the right lead (note this all is predicated on a bid that didn't happen, partner cue-bidding clubs with heart fit).

 

ben

[hotShot]

If you want to involve your partner bit 2NT in the first place. But I don't blame you for bidding 4♥, it is a good bid, keeps p silent, and takes away much bidding space for your opps.

Don't force your opps to play 6♠ when they might make it.

Now that you kept silent about ♣ and ♦, keept it that way, otherwise opps might find out they have a double fit too. They will bid and make 6♠ then.

 

So at this stage pass is the right bid.

[whereagles]

Don't force your opps to play 6♠ when they might make it.

But 7H can be a good save vs both six and FIVE spades, so why not trying it? :)

 

Looking at the bidding and my hand, I'd say they can make 6S most of the time and that I go 2 or 3 down in 7H. If I go 2 down, it's still a good save vs 5S. 3 down is too much, but it is not a catastrophe. And there's always the chance they double you in 6H.

[luke warm]

i understand roland's thinking on this, but i admit that at the table (and here lol) i'd bid 6♦... roland is correct that now south can bid 6♠ "if it's right" but my thinking is, he was gonna bid it over 6♥ anyway

 

a question for ben... after 6♦ (6♠) why is pass by partner forcing? because of my 6♦ bid or his 5♥ bid?

[the hog]

Full hand

 

[hv=n=skxhxxdaqxxcaxxxx&w=sj9xhj9xdkjxxxcq9&e=sqhakqtxxxdckjxxx&s=satxxxxxhxdt9xxcx]399|300|[/hv]

 

Note that 5H neither 5H nor 4S makes- the D pips are just good enough for the defence to come to 1H, 1S and 2D.

 

I went for -300 in 6H doubled.

 

In retrospect I think 4H was not a great bid as it seems too pre emptive in nature. Better is 2NT followed by some number of H. 4H goaded lho into bidding 4S. I bid 6H over 5S for 2 reasons - I thought 5S might make, pd might have the Ace of C and 6H could make. Faint hope!

[luke warm]

bad luck ron... it'd be hard not to want to play 6 of something

[mike777]

I can live with 4H bid.

Would like to see more discussion of the 5H bid by partner. Not just from a "law perspective" but other thoughts.

[inquiry]

I can live with 4H bid.

Would like to see more discussion of the 5H bid by partner. Not just from a "law perspective" but other thoughts.

4♥ is a mastermind that says, essentially, i want to play 4♥. Opposite an unpassed hand, this is preemptive, opposite a passed hand, it can be weak or fairly strong. i would not bid 4♥ because it takes little more than four hearts, and Ax of clubs in partner's hand to make slam.

 

Ok, so now what is the difference between...the following auction.

P-1D-4H-4S-?

• 5C = club value, and shows raise to 5♥. By implication, suggest save if clubs are useful, defense if clubs are wasted over 5♠ bid.
  
• 5D = general overall stregth (for passed hand), invites penalty double if they bid on. Not serioiusly a slam try after a 4♥ "preempt". This is not a Cue-bid slam try by a passed hand opposite a possible and likely preempt.
  
• 5♥ raising the "preempt" does not establish forcing pass, does not suggest general strength, does not show club values
  

[mike777]

Yes, I mean why should hand bid 5h? What is thought process other than we got 10-11 trumps? Is pass a reasonable option and if so why?

[inquiry]

Yes, I mean why should hand bid 5h? What is thought process other than we got 10-11 trumps? Is pass a reasonable option and if so why?

On the actual hand, West has no bid over 4♠'s. He has club Q, Diamond KJ, spade J9x... all defense and virtually no offense. Look, his partner has a monster, his and his queen of clubs solifidies that suit for his parnter and 5♥ is STILL dOWN one.. imagine if it was a normal preempt, and diamond queen was in rho hand ...5♥ is buried and 4♠ still maynot work. Tnere is no logic that turns this hand into a 5♥ bid.

[TimG]

4♥ is a mastermind that says, essentially, i want to play 4♥. Opposite an unpassed hand, this is preemptive, opposite a passed hand, it can be weak or fairly strong. i would not bid 4♥ because it takes little more than four hearts, and Ax of clubs in partner's hand to make slam.

What are the chances that the opponents can also make a slam when partner holds those magic cards and not much else? Still, I would have started with 1♥ and saw where things went from there.

 

When I first read the problem, I was prepared to keep bidding -- one post mentioned fear of defending 6♠ and my thought was: how did they stop me from bidding to the seven level? That may have been drastic, but I do think west's 5♥ bid was ill-advised. West knows east was preemtping opposite a passed hand and could have a wide variety of hands, including many where raising with 3352 shape is suicidal. It seems that it is seldom right to increase the preempt without shape of your own, and even then when partner is in a position where he could be taking liberties, just a little shape isn't enough.