eagles123 Posted February 15, 2015 Report Share Posted February 15, 2015 [hv=d=n&v=0&b=1&a=2np3cp3hp3s]133|100[/hv] 3c is regular stayman (3d/3h trans 3s 5/4 s/h, 3n to play) what is 3s now? as an aside, what would 4c have been? thanks, Eagles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyberyeti Posted February 15, 2015 Report Share Posted February 15, 2015 I don't play regular stayman in this situation, but it presumably shows 4 spades and a hand that doesn't want to bid 3N and have it passed. What 4♣ would mean depends on what 2N-4♣ means. If 2N-3♣-any-4♣ is your way of showing clubs only because you play an artificial 2N-4♣, then bidding 3♣ then 3♠ and pulling 3N to 4♣ is how you show 4♠/5+♣. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgoetze Posted February 15, 2015 Report Share Posted February 15, 2015 For me it's pretty standard that 3♠ shows a slam try in hearts, and 4♣ instead would have been natural, implying 4 spades (the strength of this implication depends on how many other ways you have to show minor suit hands). 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Tu Posted February 15, 2015 Report Share Posted February 15, 2015 Expert standard is 3♠ sets hearts as trumps and is a slam try, while 2nt-3♣-3♠-4♥ sets spades as trumps. You don't really need 3♠ to show 4 spades because if you are too strong for 3nt, you can bid 4nt (inv)/5nt (choice of slams) or 4m. 4♣ would be clubs and 4 card spades. This presumes you have other methods of showing clubs, like going through 2nt-3♠, or if you play 2nt-4♣ as natural. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyberyeti Posted February 15, 2015 Report Share Posted February 15, 2015 Expert standard is 3♠ sets hearts as trumps and is a slam try, while 2nt-3♣-3♠-4♥ sets spades as trumps. You don't really need 3♠ to show 4 spades because if you are too strong for 3nt, you can bid 4nt (inv)/5nt (choice of slams) or 4m. 4♣ would be clubs and 4 card spades. This presumes you have other methods of showing clubs, like going through 2nt-3♠, or if you play 2nt-4♣ as natural. Expert standard is to play 5 card stayman, now you definitely don't need 3♠ as natural ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgoetze Posted February 15, 2015 Report Share Posted February 15, 2015 Expert standard is to play 5 card stayman, now you definitely don't need 3♠ as natural ...You are using the word "standard" in a completely different way. What Stephen Tu describes is pretty much universal. What you're talking about is perhaps a majority position, but far from universal. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordontd Posted February 15, 2015 Report Share Posted February 15, 2015 You are using the word "standard" in a completely different way. What Stephen Tu describes is pretty much universal. What you're talking about is perhaps a majority position, but far from universal.Now you are using "universal" in a completely different way! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Posted February 15, 2015 Report Share Posted February 15, 2015 Definitely something with ♥ fit (3NT shows 4♠ - why else bid stayman?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyberyeti Posted February 15, 2015 Report Share Posted February 15, 2015 Definitely something with ♥ fit (3NT shows 4♠ - why else bid stayman?) Because if a direct 4♣ is gerber or some other artificial treatment like 5-5 majors and a direct 3♠ as stated in the OP is 5♠/4♥ then how do you bid a 4135 12+ count where you want to show both suits and go beyond 3N and possibly investigate a black suit grand. Btw I haven't met any non scratch expert partnerships with participants under about 75 where I've noticed them playing normal Stayman rather than 5 card or some form of puppet, but I'm sure somebody does and I'll hear from them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgoetze Posted February 15, 2015 Report Share Posted February 15, 2015 Because if a direct 4♣ is gerber or some other artificial treatment like 5-5 majors and a direct 3♠ as stated in the OP is 5♠/4♥ then how do you bid a 4135 12+ count where you want to show both suits and go beyond 3N and possibly investigate a black suit grand. Btw I haven't met any non scratch expert partnerships with participants under about 75 where I've noticed them playing normal Stayman rather than 5 card or some form of puppet, but I'm sure somebody does and I'll hear from them.Well, I am not an expert, so it doesn't count, but one partner with whom I played Transfer Walsh (so not entirely a "scratch Partnership") preferred regular Stayman, so we played that. Puppet Stayman is not without disadvantages, for instance you need to have a backup plan with 5♠4♥, such as bidding a direct 3♠, because Smolen is not available. (Now, playing regular Stayman and having that 3♠ bid is, I will agree, a pretty clear sign of a non-expert partnership.) This in turn robs you of the ability to use 3♠ as, say, minor suit Stayman or transfer to clubs. It's not just a straightforward upgrade. Oh yeah and how do you bid a 4135 hand? Well it's easy if you are playing regular Stayman, you bid 4♣ over a 3♥ response. Yes, it will be a lot harder if you have to put 4135 and 2236 hands throught Stayman, because you spent all the other bids on the Smolen hands so you could play Puppet Stayman. But I'm fairly certain that vandalizing your heart slam try is the wrong trade-off to make. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eagles123 Posted February 15, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 15, 2015 Expert standard is to play 5 card stayman, now you definitely don't need 3♠ as natural ... sorry I should have been more specific. This came up in a teaching session, where the teacher used normal stayman presumably to make it easier as everyone will play different versions of puppet etc whereas everyone knows ordinary stayman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ggwhiz Posted February 15, 2015 Report Share Posted February 15, 2015 Btw I haven't met any non scratch expert partnerships with participants under about 75 where I've noticed them playing normal Stayman rather than 5 card or some form of puppet, but I'm sure somebody does and I'll hear from them. Here's one and with plus results when we land in 3nt on a 5-3 fit in a major. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgoetze Posted February 15, 2015 Report Share Posted February 15, 2015 everyone will play different versions of puppet etcI think everyone playing different versions of puppet is a forum phenomenon, out there in the real world pretty much everyone plays the same basic version. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyberyeti Posted February 15, 2015 Report Share Posted February 15, 2015 Here's one and with plus results when we land in 3nt on a 5-3 fit in a major. For the record, I play 5 card non puppet which is not uncommon over here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhantomSac Posted February 15, 2015 Report Share Posted February 15, 2015 Btw I haven't met any non scratch expert partnerships with participants under about 75 where I've noticed them playing normal Stayman rather than 5 card or some form of puppet, but I'm sure somebody does and I'll hear from them. Looking for non americans in Bali I found: Buras-Gregorz http://www.ecatsbridge.com/documents/files/WBC2013/BermudaBowl/Poland/buras-narkiewicz.pdf Verhees-Rico http://www.ecatsbridge.com/documents/files/WBC2013/BermudaBowl/Netherlands/vanProoijen-Verhees.pdf Townsend-Bakhshi http://www.ecatsbridge.com/documents/files/WBC2013/BermudaBowl/England/townsend-bakhshi.pdf Korbel-Wolpert http://www.ecatsbridge.com/documents/files/WBC2013/BermudaBowl/Canada/Korbel-Wolpert.pdf But it does seem like it's much more common for top American pairs to not play puppet than anywhere else. I would guess more than half don't e.g. Greco-Hampson http://bridgewinners.com/convention-card/print/eric-greco-geoff-hampson Hurd-Wooldridge http://bridgewinners.com/convention-card/print/hurdwooldridge Berkowitz-Sontag http://bridgewinners.com/convention-card/print/david-berkowitz-alan-sontag Pepsi-Seamon http://bridgewinners.com/convention-card/print/copy-of-mseamon-jpszczola Rosenberg-Willenken http://bridgewinners.com/convention-card/print/michael-rosenberg-chris-willenken Bathurst-Moss http://usbf.org/docs/2014usbc/acblcards/MossBathurst.pdf etc etc etc. That list is largely youngish people, but I also don't play puppet with anyone nor does joe grue, roger lee, josh donn (unless he's changed) and most of the young US players. I think an older expert is more likely to play puppet than a younger expert here (except when you get to the over 70 range). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyberyeti Posted February 16, 2015 Report Share Posted February 16, 2015 I wonder if stayman is simple stayman or just lazy for the 5-card enquiry which is extremely common here. They also wouldn't have the problem here as the 6 of the cards I checked all had 3♠ or similar to deal with the minor suited hands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgoetze Posted February 16, 2015 Report Share Posted February 16, 2015 They also wouldn't have the problem here as the 6 of the cards I checked all had 3♠ or similar to deal with the minor suited hands. Puppet Stayman is not without disadvantages, for instance you need to have a backup plan with 5♠4♥, such as bidding a direct 3♠, because Smolen is not available. This in turn robs you of the ability to use 3♠ as, say, minor suit Stayman or transfer to clubs. It's not just a straightforward upgrade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyberyeti Posted February 16, 2015 Report Share Posted February 16, 2015 Puppet Stayman is not without disadvantages, for instance you need to have a backup plan with 5♠4♥, such as bidding a direct 3♠, because Smolen is not available. This in turn robs you of the ability to use 3♠ as, say, minor suit Stayman or transfer to clubs. It's not just a straightforward upgrade. Actually this is not a problem with one of the common methods here. 2N-3♣ 3M = 5 cards3♦ = no 5M, but at least 3 spades or 4 hearts so you know you have a fit with 5♠/4♥3N 2♠/2-3♥ Over 3♦ we don't puppet, but you can if 3♥ over this denies hearts and is your method to simply bid 3N, opener bids 3♠ or 3N depending on whether he has spades, 3♠ shows hearts but not spades and 3N shows 4-4. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulg Posted February 16, 2015 Report Share Posted February 16, 2015 Four-card stayman with Smolen is part of the standard system for the England Juniors and, soon, for the Scotland Juniors (where there is no standard currently). 3♠ would be a cue bid agreeing hearts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wank Posted February 16, 2015 Report Share Posted February 16, 2015 3s is an amorphous slam try for hearts (similarly 4h over 3s). 4c/d are natural with spades. 4nt is quantitative. 4s is whatever you like - voidwood? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyberyeti Posted February 16, 2015 Report Share Posted February 16, 2015 Four-card stayman with Smolen is part of the standard system for the England Juniors and, soon, for the Scotland Juniors (where there is no standard currently). 3♠ would be a cue bid agreeing hearts. OK, this surprises me but clearly I'm wrong, I've never noticed it happen with decent players and even Baron is more common in my experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PLimprove Posted February 16, 2015 Report Share Posted February 16, 2015 It's puppet stayman. 3S= 4+S,4-H Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wank Posted February 16, 2015 Report Share Posted February 16, 2015 OK, this surprises me but clearly I'm wrong, I've never noticed it happen with decent players and even Baron is more common in my experience. i've played with 3 players from recent open teams and we've played normal stayman and smolen every time (i don't direct system). personally, i've never played 3c 5 card stayman and consider it to be one of the more useless conventions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgoetze Posted February 16, 2015 Report Share Posted February 16, 2015 Actually this is not a problem with one of the common methods here. 2N-3♣ 3M = 5 cards3♦ = no 5M, but at least 3 spades or 4 hearts so you know you have a fit with 5♠/4♥3N 2♠/2-3♥ Over 3♦ we don't puppet, but you can if 3♥ over this denies hearts and is your method to simply bid 3N, opener bids 3♠ or 3N depending on whether he has spades, 3♠ shows hearts but not spades and 3N shows 4-4.That's all fine and well except that you're playing pretty much every 4-4 fit with responder as declarer, which seems pretty horrible. And with the puppet variation of your method you're leaking quite a bit more information than with standard puppet. Believe me, if this method were straight-up superior to anything else it would be common in more places than just "here". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyberyeti Posted February 16, 2015 Report Share Posted February 16, 2015 i've played with 3 players from recent open teams and we've played normal stayman and smolen every time (i don't direct system). personally, i've never played 3c 5 card stayman and consider it to be one of the more useless conventions. Always worked well for me, but then I'd never heard of Smolen until I started frequenting websites with Americans so am used to it. 5 card stayman over 2N was popularised I think by Crowhurst's books and was played by many people who read them at the time. It seems to have very little obvious downside, and the obvious upsides that you don't play 3N with 5332 opposite 3442 with matching small doubletons and can investigate a slam when you have a 5-4 fit and combined values short of what you'd need with a 4-4 fit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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